14ga frame horns for engine

[WS6]

I haven't even started mock up. I am just thinking and researching at this point. My plan is to move the motor(LT1) back towards the firewall on my TA which will necessitate me building my own frame horns to support the engine. My Lincoln 110v machine can weld up to 14ga steel. So, if I build a simple box structure similar to how the factory did it on so many cars, will that be thick enough to use to support the engine? I'm not even sure how thick the metal is on the subframe for a 2nd gen. Any other suggestions or anything else I should think about in general?



Thanks

[Mathius]

I haven't even started mock up. I am just thinking and researching at this point. My plan is to move the motor(LT1) back towards the firewall on my TA which will necessitate me building my own frame horns to support the engine. My Lincoln 110v machine can weld up to 14ga steel. So, if I build a simple box structure similar to how the factory did it on so many cars, will that be thick enough to use to support the engine? I'm not even sure how thick the metal is on the subframe for a 2nd gen. Any other suggestions or anything else I should think about in general?

Thanks

Absolutely not. Here's a quick reference for you we use on the job. 16 gauge is basically 1/16", and 10 gauge is basically 1/8". That's not exact, but it's close enough to get a feel for your materials. So 14 gauge falls somewhere in between there. Frame rails are typically 3/16" material, or in rare cases beefier.

Now.. TECHNICALLY, you could probably weld 3/16" material if you made multiple passes... but I'm not going to be the one whose going to tell you yes or not on that. You're talking about the structural integrity of your car, and I'm not an engineer. I'm not going to tell you how hot your welder actually has to be to weld 3/16" in a multi-pass because I just don't know and I wouldn't feel comfortable telling you to do it.

If it were me, I'd find someone with a bigger welder, or rent one.

Mathius

[WS6]

Thanks Mathius. I've come to the conclusion with the mig. I have access to a Lincoln Precision Tig 185 that I think can do it. I need to learn Tig first though. If I can't pick it up well enough, I can always mount the engine in the stock location. I just know that there's room to move the engine back on the factory subframe and not hit the firewall. Problem is, frame horns have to be built.

[Mathius]

Thanks Mathius. I've come to the conclusion with the mig. I have access to a Lincoln Precision Tig 185 that I think can do it. I need to learn Tig first though. If I can't pick it up well enough, I can always mount the engine in the stock location. I just know that there's room to move the engine back on the factory subframe and not hit the firewall. Problem is, frame horns have to be built.

Some TIG welders have an option that lets you set your heat manually and you don't use the pedal. The tig torch will arc automatically when it gets close to your grounded work. I believe it's simply called high frequency, but its been years since I TIG'ed regularly so I may be wrong on the term.

But that might be something you want to look into using for two reasons.. #1 as a beginner, its one less thing you have to learn and/or worry about... #2 welding on a car frame you're going to be welding all around in every position. You don't want to try to weld all the way around your frame while trying to keep your foot on the pedal and maintaining your heat level.

TIG welding is a lot of fun and pretty easy if you have good hand eye coordination (and foot). It takes some dexterity and being ambidextrious helps as well.

The key is to never touch the tungsten to your work and always keep the correct angle. Oh, and obviously if you add too much filler you piece will heat up and possibly burn through or just look like crap.

Mathius

[WS6]

This machine has a setting where I control max amps with a button even thought I use the pedal to apply the amperage up to that point. I thought that was pretty neat since I had heard working the pedal can be difficult to get used to.

[gto406]

Trey, I was going to suggest 11ga for the frame myself and if your welder can't handle it - look to go bigger. I am using 11ga for the support sections of my frame, and the thickness seems pretty close (I think the frame thickness on GM frames is somewhere between 10 and 11 ga).

Best of luck with the welding. Note, I am a Honey Nut Cheerios addict myself 8^).

Cheers,
Brian.

[jackfrost]

Note, I am a Honey Nut Cheerios addict myself

every single morning.

on topic - when I was getting my argon refilled I noticed the welding place rented 220 machines. I didn't catch a price though. you might also try flux core wire, usually you can weld a little bit thicker material w/ it.

[Mathius]

Trey, I was going to suggest 11ga for the frame myself and if your welder can't handle it - look to go bigger. I am using 11ga for the support sections of my frame, and the thickness seems pretty close (I think the frame thickness on GM frames is somewhere between 10 and 11 ga).

Best of luck with the welding. Note, I am a Honey Nut Cheerios addict myself 8^).

Cheers,
Brian.

There are no 11 gauge frames on a GM vehicle. What you are calling a frame is a subframe.

Gm hasn't made a vehicle with a frame that wasn't a truck since the 80's I don't believe (barring the Corvette) and I know damn well that the frames on a pickup truck aren't 11 gauge. That's basically less than 1/8".

Mathius

[WS6]

Thanks for the input guys I really appreciate it. At this time I'm nixing my idea to move the engine back. I started looking today with the 403 still in place and it's not worth the effort. I can only go back 2-3 inches without cutting up the tunnel. I'll save that type work for a more hardcore build. Besides, even if I do move the engine back for this build, I still can't get my AC compressor in the factory LT1 position which is low passenger side just like the LSx engines.

Thanks again everyone.

[gto406]

Yes, Mathius you are correct 10ga is 1/8" (according to the book) and 11ga is 7/64".

The difference is a total of 1/64" - would that make a huge difference - ah... no

Further to this I re-measured both my frame (a GM A-body full-frame, as opposed to an F-body _sub_frame as you pointed out) and one of the bracing pieces, accordingly I measured .131" and .123" respectively. To my calculations, a GM _frame_ falls somewhere in between 10 and 11 ga as I correctly noted before based on the following table for mild-steel: http://www.irvansmith.com/scart/arti...?articles_id=8.

The difference in my case is a 'whopping' 8-1/thousandth of an inch (i.e. .008"). I don't think that will make an appreciable difference in strength!

Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways 8^)

[Mathius]

Yes, Mathius you are correct 10ga is 1/8" (according to the book) and 11ga is 7/64".

The difference is a total of 1/64" - would that make a huge difference - ah... no

Further to this I re-measured both my frame (a GM A-body full-frame, as opposed to an F-body _sub_frame as you pointed out) and one of the bracing pieces, accordingly I measured .131" and .123" respectively. To my calculations, a GM _frame_ falls somewhere in between 10 and 11 ga as I correctly noted before based on the following table for mild-steel: http://www.irvansmith.com/scart/arti...?articles_id=8.

The difference in my case is a 'whopping' 8-1/thousandth of an inch (i.e. .008"). I don't think that will make an appreciable difference in strength!

Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways 8^)

I have an A-Body sitting out the window from me with a 3/16" frame that was released in '76.

Don't go measuring "braces" as you put it and quote it as a frame size. Braces are not frames, they are braces. What is the thickness of your frame rail, and what year and make a-body are you claiming has an 11 gauge frame?

The difference between 10 gauge and 11 gauge is nowhere near relevant in this discussion.

The point is, it's too thin for a frame unless it's specifically engineered that way, i.e. a subframe, which is weak by itself, but strong when welded to the whole.

I can bend 1/8" steel with my bare hands. You want to suggest to this guy that he builds a frame for his car out of it? On pro-touring.com of all places where people are trying to build g-machines on a regular basis that will be seeing plenty of vibration and stress on the autocross?

Also, factory specs aren't really even relevant to this discussion. The factory specs are fine for a daily driver, but there's a reason most intelligent people won't even swap their engine on a camaro or the like for more horsepower without adding subframe connectors. It's the same reason that people will box their 1/8" rear controller arms. Because most subframe cars weren't built for a racing environment.

Mathius

[gto406]

Nowhere did WS6 talk about 'building' a frame, he was talking about 'frame horns' and engine supports.

...towards the firewall on my TA which will necessitate me building my own frame horns to support the engine.

If WS6 wanted to build a frame, I wouldn't reply since I have NOT built a frame - but for boxed supports 10 (or 11) gage is fine either on road or off. And btw, I measured both my frame AND the braces - off of 72 A-body (you remember those - the real GM cars not the crap they built for MY 76+).

I would suggest you lighten up a bit and read the posts a little more carefully - but not too hard, wouldn't want you to blow your brains out - like you seem to be doing on your last couple of posts 8^)

[BRIAN]

S&W, A MORRISON, ETC all have pre fab'd engine mount cradles. You can simply get a 1 5/8 tube one. Drill a hole in both frame rails. Slide on end as far in one rail and then pull in back out back into the other. You are then basically welding just to hold it in place.

Nice easy and will be cheaper in the long run.

[Mathius]

Nowhere did WS6 talk about 'building' a frame, he was talking about 'frame horns' and engine supports.



If WS6 wanted to build a frame, I wouldn't reply since I have NOT built a frame - but for boxed supports 10 (or 11) gage is fine either on road or off. And btw, I measured both my frame AND the braces - off of 72 A-body (you remember those - the real GM cars not the crap they built for MY 76+).

I would suggest you lighten up a bit and read the posts a little more carefully - but not too hard, wouldn't want you to blow your brains out - like you seem to be doing on your last couple of posts 8^)

I read just fine. Do you even know what frame horns are? Christ, it's part of the frame. Same difference. In fact, if YOU read what he wrote, he's not even talking about frame horns, which would be the end of the frame, he's talking about modifying the whole front of his frame to support and cradle the engine in another position.

I will not "lighten up" since what you're suggesting is potentially dangerous.

1/8" steel can be used on a car frame or subframes if engineered properly, but since the guy doesn't even know what size material to use on a frame, I doubt he knows how to engineer it so it maintains enough strength.

Mathius

[gto406]

S&W, A MORRISON, ETC all have pre fab'd engine mount cradles. You can simply get a 1 5/8 tube one. Drill a hole in both frame rails. Slide on end as far in one rail and then pull in back out back into the other. You are then basically welding just to hold it in place.

Nice easy and will be cheaper in the long run.

Sounds like a good plan, both companies make very nice stuff. I am sure even Jeff Schwartz (http://www.gmachinechassis.com/) would have something or be able to whip something up for you, WS6.

Keep smiling, and stay safe - that includes you as well Mathius 8^)
Brian.