Should I get the ABS too from an LS1?

[UNmolestedTA]

Just curious, I am about to remove the front and rear discs from an LS1 firebird to use on my 67. Should I get the ABS controller as well?

[CarlC]

No. There are a plethora of difficulties associated with adapting the ABS system to other cars.

[EFI69Cam]

No. There are a plethora of difficulties associated with adapting the ABS system to other cars.

Care to elaborate?

People said the same thing about EFI 20 years ago.

[chicane67]

Well, the biggest issue is writing your own algorithms... and that only does good if you can even interface with the EBCM.

Good luck with that...

[EFI69Cam]

Well, the biggest issue is writing your own algorithms... and that only does good if you can even interface with the ECBM.

Good luck with that...

Oh you mean like how you have to write your own "algorithms" for an ECM when you swap engines?

The "algorithms" are written, what may need to be tweaked is the calibration tables.

[junkman]

I don't really know about how you would go about mounting up all the reluctors on each axle, and I don't really understand why you would want to. It would be different though. Most people take it off, never really heard of anyone wanting to add it.

[chicane67]

Oh you mean like how you have to write your own "algorithms" for an ECM when you swap engines?

The "algorithms" are written, what may need to be tweaked is the calibration tables.

Well... I guess if it were as "easy" as late model EFI... it would have been done by now. But the fact of the matter is... that it has NOT (at least on a large scale). And unless you are familiar with how the algorithm is written... and especially if the calibration table is outside of the variable that you need to address... I guess it will be close enough right ?? Uhm... yeah. So if the calibration window is too small, how is it again that you are going to get it to work ?? Oh... that's right. You either hope that the range is available and re-write the calibration table or re-write the algorithm to support the additional range if its not.

I don't really know about how you would go about mounting up all the reluctors on each axle, and I don't really understand why you would want to. It would be different though. Most people take it off, never really heard of anyone wanting to add it.

The addition of wheel speed sensor's has been answered... ATS and a few others thankfully, already have answers for that issue. The addition of late model ABS in any early chassis can and does have its benifits for some... and for others... it doenst do anything at all. It can bring an element of safety that was never part of what was originally offered.

[EFI69Cam]

Well... I guess if it were as "easy" as late model EFI... it would have been done by now. But the fact of the matter is... that it has NOT (at least on a large scale). And unless you are familiar with how the algorithm is written... and especially if the calibration table is outside of the variable that you need to address... I guess it will be close enough right ?? Uhm... yeah. So if the calibration window is too small, how is it again that you are going to get it to work ?? Oh... that's right. You either hope that the range is available and re-write the calibration table or re-write the algorithm to support the additional range if its not.

Your points are valid IF you are adaping a system from a chassis that is radically different from the receipient chassis.

A first gen is really not all that different than a 4th. There are changes made to tire sizes and braking capability on 4th gens all the time with no ill effects on the ABS.

You make it sound like the car will explode the first time you hit the brakes.

[gearheads78]

Only reason to get it if its know good is to sell it. The pieces of crap go out all the time in 4th gen cars and are very expensive to replace.

Adding fuel injection adds a real benefit but can't see any reason to add ABS other than to make a good braking system work worse. ABS is for average joe that just want to hit the brakes as hard as they can. If you can drive you will stop better than ABS ever could.

[rohrt]

Don't the ATS spindles have some provision for ABS? I thought I read somthing on that when they first came out.

I had wondered the same thing about hooking up a ABS system to just the front for emergency breaking.

[amx2334]

This guy made it work. works so well he won. compare the braking performances.
http://www.carcraft.com/eventcoverag...amx/index.html

[DarkoNova]

I've been thinking of doing it ever since I saw that the ATS spindles had the provisions for it. I'm probably going to find a way to encorporate it (and possibly traction control), even if it ends up costing a lot of money. I just basically want my car to have everything the new cars do.

Matt

[Rhino]

Only reason to get it if its know good is to sell it. The pieces of crap go out all the time in 4th gen cars and are very expensive to replace.

Adding fuel injection adds a real benefit but can't see any reason to add ABS other than to make a good braking system work worse. ABS is for average joe that just want to hit the brakes as hard as they can. If you can drive you will stop better than ABS ever could.

I'm sorry, but that's just outright false and misleading. It's been proven 100's if not 1000's of times that ABS will far outperform a human under most scenarios.
Let me know when you can individually modulate one wheel that's slipping.

[chicane67]

Your points are valid IF you are adaping a system from a chassis that is radically different from the receipient chassis.

A first gen is really not all that different than a 4th. There are changes made to tire sizes and braking capability on 4th gens all the time with no ill effects on the ABS.

You make it sound like the car will explode the first time you hit the brakes.

No... you make it sound like the car will explode by your own comments. I never made any point to that exaggeration.

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.

Don't the ATS spindles have some provision for ABS? I thought I read somthing on that when they first came out.

I had wondered the same thing about hooking up a ABS system to just the front for emergency breaking.

The AFX spindle's utilize the wheel bearing cartridges from the C5/C6 Y-Body... that do incorporate wheel speed sensors.

There would be no useful gain to using ABS on just the front end... and it would also be dangerous to do so. Yes... the idea of helping the front end would make sense, but... that wouldnt help the rear end passing you by in a slide from it not being controlled. You either do independant channel front wheel's with a single channel rear... or... you do four wheel independant channels. You could also do just the rear as a single or independant channels... but those systems are beyond out dated and there isnt must support for them.

As I stated earlier in this thread... there have been a few cats here stateside and a couple overseas that have gotten the later model Bosch 8.x units to work very well. I dont mean to make it sound like its impossible do make this system work... because its not impossible and its actually somewhat easy if you understand the dynamics of the individual components and making them work in/on a platform that wasnt designed to in the first place. From my experience, the Y-Body system is far easier to work with than the F-Body system... which can include the stability and traction control systems of the donor Y-Body chassis.

The front end of the system is a piece of cake... thanks to the AFX spindle. The rear however at this point is where you need to do your homework. I know of two different ways that the rear end can be handled for specific systems. One solution is on the OneLapCamaro and the other is just about out of the bag. If you have or are wanting to build a component matching system that will work seemlessly with the AFX spindle... keep your eyes open in the next couple of months. I forsee a solution that will make this all somewhat easier than the currnet market has to offer.

[EFI69Cam]

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.

The unknown factors are the reason why I backed off retrofitting the 4th gen system. I don't want to endanger anyone.

I'll keep my eyes out for what you guys come up with. I have a DSE subframe now, but it has the C5/C6 bearing packs also.

[bobhamilton15090]

I'm sorry, but that's just outright false and misleading. It's been proven 100's if not 1000's of times that ABS will far outperform a human under most scenarios.
Let me know when you can individually modulate one wheel that's slipping.

ABS is designed to allow steering in a panic braking situation. Under ANY condition ABS will actually lengthen the stopping distance but gives you control over the steering by not allowing the brakes to lock up the wheels. This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing. They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

[gearheads78]

ABS is designed to allow steering in a panic braking situation. Under ANY condition ABS will actually lengthen the stopping distance but gives you control over the steering by not allowing the brakes to lock up the wheels. This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing. They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

Thats basicly what I ment you just said it much better. Thanks

[Rhino]

They help ok drivers drive better in bad situations and do nothing to help a properly set up car with an experienced driver behind the wheel.

Under good conditions you're absolutely correct.
The issue isn't quite so cut and dry when you're dealing with the unknown of driver experience with a particular car. ABS is a decent stand in for experience in adverse conditions. If conditions vary from wheel to wheel and moment to moment (such as patchy ice, oil spots, etc...) ABS can have a significant benefit of a more controlled stop.
My original post was a little less descriptive than it should have been, but my statement does still hold true. I find it very misleading to use a blanket statement that ABS holds no benefit.

Due to the fact that most of our cars are simply fair weather or track toys the vast majority of us won't reap these benefits. With that said I would contemplate ABS if it were a car that gets driven a significant amount of time on the streets.

[DarkoNova]

No... you make it sound like the car will explode by your own comments. I never made any point to that exaggeration.

All I was trying to convey is that until it is a proven and working system in the recipient chassis... there is a list of unknown factors that scream "safety issue"... and using it on public roads is a gross liability and a danger to all encompassing.



The AFX spindle's utilize the wheel bearing cartridges from the C5/C6 Y-Body... that do incorporate wheel speed sensors.

There would be no useful gain to using ABS on just the front end... and it would also be dangerous to do so. Yes... the idea of helping the front end would make sense, but... that wouldnt help the rear end passing you by in a slide from it not being controlled. You either do independant channel front wheel's with a single channel rear... or... you do four wheel independant channels. You could also do just the rear as a single or independant channels... but those systems are beyond out dated and there isnt must support for them.

As I stated earlier in this thread... there have been a few cats here stateside and a couple overseas that have gotten the later model Bosch 8.x units to work very well. I dont mean to make it sound like its impossible do make this system work... because its not impossible and its actually somewhat easy if you understand the dynamics of the individual components and making them work in/on a platform that wasnt designed to in the first place. From my experience, the Y-Body system is far easier to work with than the F-Body system... which can include the stability and traction control systems of the donor Y-Body chassis.

The front end of the system is a piece of cake... thanks to the AFX spindle. The rear however at this point is where you need to do your homework. I know of two different ways that the rear end can be handled for specific systems. One solution is on the OneLapCamaro and the other is just about out of the bag. If you have or are wanting to build a component matching system that will work seemlessly with the AFX spindle... keep your eyes open in the next couple of months. I forsee a solution that will make this all somewhat easier than the currnet market has to offer.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you work for or own a company? Are you developing something right now? If so, I'm definitely, DEFINITELY interested.

Matt

[amx2334]

This is well documented in many service instruction manuals and most techs will tell you the same thing.

I've never seen this as a tech. Of course as a tech I never went out and did any testing of braking distances and performance.I don't know of any techs that do. Do you have any links to this data?