Pro-Touring Show Cars?

[parsonsj]

more than a few people are a little upset over this

That's possible, though I really haven't seen much evidence of people being upset in this thread ... at least so far.

I'd like to see people discussing with data, rather then with emotion and generalization.



How about we try this:

What elements do people see that defines a show car? Does a smoothed firewall? Shaved door handles? Candy paint job? Do any of these elements belong on a Pro-Touring car? If not, why not? If so, why? Do show car elements automatically keep a car from being Pro-Touring?

I'm not really looking for the typical "who cares?" type response. If you don't care, don't respond. If you have an opinion, share it. If you disagree with somebody else's opinion, that's OK. It's OK to say so. If you disagree, try and articulate why you disagree. Name-calling and personal attacks won't be tolerated.

jp

[Bill Howell]

JP and others,
One thing I read here is that some are certain that you have to have a vehicle capable of road racing to be pro-touring. Others feel you have to drag race. For what it is worth, alot of us are not in the proximity of a road course track. So maybe since we know we will not have the opportunity to ever road race, we do not get overly concerned with that aspect of the sport. Believe me, if I could, I would be on a tract regularly, but the only racing I have access to is a drag strip. Maybe this factors in to the picture too.
One thing is for sure, people are passionate about their rides and some take offense faster than others. Personally, I don't feel another 1000 post here will change anyone's opinion but it is entertaining to see some get so worked up over nothing. It might be better to have series of questions and take a poll. That way everyone could voice their opinions, we would know what the majority thought and no one would be personally attacked.Take the same poll every six months-we have almost doubled in size in the last six months and at that rate of growth, we may find the general concensus is ever changing. This is just an observation of an old man
It is past my bedtime now, goodnight everyone,
Bill

[Salt Racer]

...For what it is worth, alot of us are not in the proximity of a road course track...

I drove my 40-year old Buick from Seattle to Vegas to Fresno to Rosamond (Willow Spring Raceway) and back to Seattle to see my friends and to run my car on the track during my last vacation. And I'm going back to SoCal in April to run Buttonwillow. Why? 'cause Seattle weather sucks and I enjoy driving.

...Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that in order to have a trick suspension setup on your car, you must wring it out on the track?...

Yup, that is my opinion. What's the point of having good suspension if you never use its full potential? Why can't show people be happy with refurbished stock suspension, chromed tubular arms, and stock geometry?

...Not only does it open up a broader clientele and marketplace than has been seen in the past, it would seem to put money in your pocket...

I'd rather live on Top Ramen and sale my suspension only to those who use it for its intended use. I didn't get into this business for money. I design both street and race suspension. If my customer with street suspension regularly drives his car on street, I'm happy. I hate to see cars with my suspension getting trailered from show to show.

[Silverbird]

I think the fact that were on this site not to mention getting heated up about basically a silly subject as to what is "Pro-Touring" is why cars are being built as nice as they are.
We love them. We spend time with them, we spend a lot of time just staring at them and thinking of things to do with them. The fact of the matter is if you are just for performance than take all the money your putting in performance parts and buy a C6.
My Firebird is pushing twice the horse power as my c6 has wider tires, I've ridiculous money on suspension parts and tuning yet will never be as fast or handle as well.
But to me that is not the point. My Firebird is much more than just a track car. It has character, it's my own personal expression of what I think is cool.
The thing that got me into the hobby regardless of what you want to call it Pro-touring or whatever was the whole engineering aspect of building on a platform that is basically a brick with suspension of a shopping cart.
Again this is a hobby. Some of the guys that seem to be performance snobs act like you only get one car in your life and it has to kick ass on the track or your a sell out.
Why are we driving old iron? Is it because it's the best platform for performance? Because it's the cheapest way to performance?
Lighten up.
I am more of a performance and engineering oriented person but I don't see the guys that pay more attention to looks and fit and finish being half as anal as the rest of us.
To me if your into building and engineering it doesn't stop at suspension. I love my Bird I want to spend a lot of time behind the wheel so I want it to be as comfortable as possible A.C.,leather blah, blah. Their is just as much fun in building looks and comfort as performance.
Anyway I'm rambling. My point is if its a hobby which I think speaks for most of us. Then your going to keep kicking it up a notch. Making your ride faster, handle better and look sweeter.

[Bill Howell]

Yup, that is my opinion. What's the point of having good suspension if you never use its full potential? Why can't show people be happy with refurbished stock suspension, chromed tubular arms, and stock geometry?
I'd rather live on Top Ramen and sale my suspension only to those who use it for its intended use. I didn't get into this business for money. I design both street and race suspension. If my customer with street suspension regularly drives his car on street, I'm happy. I hate to see cars with my suspension getting trailered from show to show.

Ok, Since it looks like ths thread will never die, let me open a new part of the equation.

Katz, no doubt you are one of the more vocal members when it comes to suspension and it's role in pro-touring. Denny is another, but I know where he stands on this question.
Does your car have a LS1 or if not is it fuel injected or carb?
What is your opinion about that aspect of the sport?
This is in not way meant to put you on the spot, I am just curious. There are some here that think LSx is a must. While I would love to have one, I know I will probably always stick to the carb. way of doing things. Since your car actually sees the track and you also drive it on trips, I hope you tell me it has a carb.

[JohnUlaszek]

I couldn't disagree more about the LSx being a requirement. I love the LS series engines, but you can't beat the sound of an old style small block due to its firing order, and at the end of the day any engine that sounds cool and has at least 300 or so horsepower or less for light cars should be a blast
Heck that 403 olds they ran in PHR this month would kick ass. I don't even see EFI as a requirement, carbs are just as cool when done right.

[Steve1968LS2]

I couldn't disagree more about the LSx being a requirement. I love the LS series engines, but you can't beat the sound of an old style small block due to its firing order, and at the end of the day any engine that sounds cool and has at least 300 or so horsepower or less for light cars should be a blast
Heck that 403 olds they ran in PHR this month would kick ass. I don't even see EFI as a requirement, carbs are just as cool when done right.

Yea, carbs are cool as heck.. the big advantage of LSx engines is the weight. Oh, and EFI is more efficient..

Pro-Touring is more about suspension than engines.. too much hp is actually a waste on most tracks (well, except drag strips ;)

[Bill Howell]

Yea, carbs are cool as heck.. the big advantage of LSx engines is the weight. Oh, and EFI is more efficient..

Pro-Touring is more about suspension than engines.. too much hp is actually a waste on most tracks (well, except drag strips ;)

I think alot of folks go the LS route because that is "the right thing". A typical efi set up is what? Fifteen hundred to two grand more than a carb set up? That money will go a long way towards a nice (not all out, but decent) suspension setup. How many here have fell for the hype that they had to go with a LS and then did not have the coins to spend on their suspension or some other area they had planned to work on?
I hope that as a forum dedicated to pro-touring, we don't run off lurkers and newbies because they think if they can not or will not spend X on a particular part or area of their car, we will not welcome them here. As someone has already said-BALANCE is the key.
I have been around here for awhile now, but after this thread, I feel that my ride will probably not qualify as Pro-Touring. Maybe I need to start a new trend- "Decent-Tourer"
Bottom line, like slownova, I built my malibu suit me, not to be critiqued by someone who will probably never see it in person. It probably will not accel in any one area, but like some other things I can think of, it pleases me just fine and that is what really matters.

[yody]

I think I have the answer to all of this nonsense. It is a way better thought out thought than before I believe that a lot of the guys here and all over arent' really into "pro-touring", the new "mainstream" car building is hotrod/restomod or whatever they call it, the chip foose/boyd coddington, troy trepanier builds/style. These are show cars that use certain aspects of the pro-touring style. These are the new breed of show cars and are VERY popular. What seems to be happening is people recognize pro-touring as mainstream now and are taking certain aspects of the pro-touring genre in building their cars. They come to this site and participate and take away what they need. Like the twin turbo boyd vetter, no one called that a protouring car, the owner posted here. It was a show car that took some of the pro-touring fashion and combined it, should we kick him off? did he ever say his car was protouring? IF he posted project updates of his car should we attack him? Now if they are going out and calling their cars protouring that isn't exactly correct, but so what...its gonna happen. there are always posers or just plain confused people...so what? I really like these new style of show cars. People actually drive them a little more, as you can see on teh power tour. They are geared towards performance a lot more than the previous show cars. I think that B Cichocki summed it up in a very good way, better than i can say it. This is a topic that keeps seeming to come up. BTW nineball.....so how does that car handle? time for a road coarse!! IF it can turn as good as it goes straight you might consider entering in teh RSE contest, you might just win.....if it can turn!