Pro-Touring Show Cars?

[toddshotrods]

Note: A typical 22" rim itself weighs more than a typical 275/40R17 mounted on 17x9.5 rim, and reinforced tires (due to lack of air volume) ain't light weight either. If anyone thinks I'm saying this b/c I only have 18" rims on my car, go pee on Isaac Newton's tomb stone. It's physics.

A forged HRE 22x12" rim weighs 35lbs; a 20x8" rim tips the scales at 27lbs. That information is from HRE. They're probably a bit on the heavy side because they are actually SUV wheels. I had to wait until I had a burst of energy to dig through my notes to find the specs. That being said...

As previsouly mentioned, the older I get the more value I place on aesthetics, and the less I see myself actually racing. I don't mean I won't race again, just that it will happen less frequently. Probably to the chagrin of the hardcore racers, I am determined to have 20's & 22's on my supercar project. The car itself will be a mixed breed - a marriage of hardcore G-machine design, engineering, and performance, to show car style, detailing, and craftsmanship.

Why combine two seemingly disparate concepts? That's what floats my boat. It's the ultimate car to me - win the Riddler on Sunday, find the perfect apex on Monday. Why compromise the handling with 20's and 22's? Because the asthetic aspect is just as important. For those few occasions where I am on the track looking for the last drop, I will just have to live with the compromise. For the other 300-some odd days of the year when I am admiring my work, driving on public roads, or showing the car - the big wheels will be worth their weight in gold.

The point of all this is not to try and justify the choice, it's to try and help people understand - why!?!?! Sure there is a penalty in performance, but is the "something-lost" an asset that was actually going to be used or merely mentioned? In other words, if a particular choice would cost a person a few tenths or seconds on the track, are they tenths or seconds that were really necessary for that person to be satisfied with their project? There is no sanctioning body, no field to make, no bubble to be in. A little performance sacrificed for something that is more important to the owner should be OK, as long as the guiding theme is still great (subjective) all-around performance.

My final point (for now) is about the whole Pro-Touring concept. I think I was mistaken about what it is. I thought Pro-Touring was about bringing an older vehicle up to modern levels of performance and comfort. I thought it was about building a classic STREET vehicle with great character and rich heritage oozing from its pores, to be as enjoyable and entertaining to DRIVE as any modern sports car. I didn't realize that it is, to many, about building a potentially competitive track car, that is also driven on the street.

Don't you guys ever just enjoy driving a nice vehicle? I mean at or near the speed limits, on public roadways. When you drive a modern sports car, doesn't the feel and precision of the steering (just doing the normal things) and the tightness of the ride bring a smile to your face? Or maybe it's a transmission that makes you find reasons to shift, because it is so smooth. Some cars are just fun to drive and make you want to stay in them all day - even when you are not even close to the limit, let alone pushing it. I thought Pro-Touring was about making the driving experience of an older "so-and-so" feel like that, so that you would have the best of both worlds.

[dennis68]

Damn...Katz beat me to it. I was going to post the exact same thing. This whole discussion stems from the "pretty" subframe thread that was placed in the wrong topic and started a whole series of crap.

To eliminate this in the future, if you want to post how pretty something looks I would suggest not posting in the engine, brakes, suspension, or any other tech forum. I personally rarely check any other topic but for the tech threads, I really don't care how pretty something looks or what kind of new stereo someone just installed or how cleanly you managed to make a subframe look.

Now, lets get along and play nice...Yodi, go polish some more bolt heads on the chassis that no one will ever see-Katz go figure out a way to make that 4200 beast of car outrun my Elco.

Hopefully I have offended everyone equally. :icon_razz

PS, Katz, on your way down you’re going to pas right through a bunch of our neighborhoods. Let us know when you get ready to move and we can plan something.

[MrQuick]

hey you guys ever read "lord of the flys"?

Lets try to get together and quit alienating people. As proven before there is ALOT of room here for us all. It seems this conversation comes about every 8 months or so.
Let keep making fun of Allen, Zowy and Den, thats always fun.

[yody]

hey, what about me, i want to be made fun of......wait!! Dennis go fudge your spindle specs that isn't even going to make your truck/car faster! HA! I really enjoyed reading toddshotrods post. I have a new idea! Why don't we start a thread on what pro-touring means to yourself and keep it as a sticky. THat way there will be no definte definition of pro-touring on this site, but newbies will have something really good to read when they come here! i am not the best with words but i will try a new post. If it doesn't work....oh well, the smart a$$ tried........

[Steve Chryssos]

I do agree that lately there are a lot of hot rod cars with the protouring influence around lately. THey aren't protouring, but who cares? They can still come to our board and post and enjoy protouring. 22" rims and smooothed frames have nothing to do with protouring. We all know that, but that doesnt' mean they can't incorporate pro-touring ideas into their ride or post here.

THat way there will be no definte definition of pro-touring on this site, but newbies will have something really good to read when they come here! i am not the best with words but i will try a new post. If it doesn't work....oh well, the smart a$$ tried.

Man I just read this dizzying thread in it's entirety. While throwing up, I realized that Yody is making the most sense here (I'm as shocked as the rest of you)

There are many different types of hot rods. street rods, pro street, kit cars, sport compacts, sport trucks, lowriders--you name it. A nitro burning funny car is a hot rod too! All of these cars exhibit varying levels of both performance and style (I will intentionally avoid use of the terms "FUNCTION" AND "SHOW")

A lowrider is heavily biased towards style rather than performance. A top fuel dragster is a hot rod that places extreme emphasis on performance. But both are hot rods.

What makes pro-touring cars so great is BALANCE--Balanced performance and style. When the pro-touring pendulum swings too far in one direction or another, folks start itchin' and complaining. Fear sets in:

Oh no! Datsbad's subframe looks so good that it may single handedly swing the entire pro-touring pendulum towards style. Oh no! Slownova's got dubs on his Chevelle!! Help! g-Man! Put on your cape and tights!! Save us from those evil 22's!!

In the end, Yody's right. It's not possible to establish a concise, concrete pro-touring feature set. No component or style element is mandatory or excluded. A pro-touring car is just a balanced hot rod. Some pro-touring cars perform better than others. Some are more stylish. The biggest mistake we can make as a club is to force our own individual interpretations down other people's throats. Don't concern yourselves with other people's interpretations. The pendulum may swing a little to the left or a little to the right, but:

As long as BALANCE is present in the car's planning and execution, it's pro-touring.

BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE
BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE

[Doug Harden]

It's really funny.....and sad to think that in our hobby, where INDIVIDUALISM is the MAIN ingredient...people start to bitch when someone doesn't follow "their" interpretation of what is or isn't......

Hell, I won't look twice at an engine that has a carburator....been there done that, seen that a million times.......BUT, I don't think any less of the builder or give him crap over HIS choice......

What I DO look at is cars that show ingenuity and engineering....and quality of execution.

[Nine Ball]

BTW nineball.....so how does that car handle? time for a road coarse!! IF it can turn as good as it goes straight you might consider entering in teh RSE contest, you might just win.....if it can turn!

I was excited to see RSE come back, until I read the part where they factor in vehicle price/value and give more points to the cheaper built car. My car is well beyond that budget, its about an $80K project car. I could have build a 4th gen f-body for less than $20K that would kick the crap out of my '69 in every single category.

So, whats the point in entering it? Too bad they worry about price instead of all-out performance and craftsmanship.

[yody]

umm, that is only one point of the judgement, if that one thing only keeps you from entering, you are pretty lame....just kidding. but really all the other things that your car has can overcome that one point. Or are you chicken?? baakaaww!

[slownova]

i thought you guys were suppose to make fun of me behind my back i myself personally like my car, and don't honestly care what any of you negative ones think. i feel it doesn't matter if its a pinto or a camaro, its a common theme here. were all serching for our own meaning of "pro-tour". i got a dash full of autometer gauges next to a TV molded into the dash. what do you call that? ghetto faboulous or practical and comfortable? i feel my cars getting way more attention and looks 100% better then if i just threw some 18s on it like everyone else. im not knocking anyone personally with my comments, but everyone seems to have a stupid comment to me. i don't care though, you would be suprised about the attention i get becouse im "not like everyone else". so back to this dash comment? thats about as ignorant as saying i don't belong in here becouse of my rim sizes. i mean what kinda moron spends that much on autometer gauges and ruins it with a tv??? oh yea thats right. its me

[parsonsj]

everyone seems to have a stupid comment to me

Slow,
A bit of an overstatement, no? Please keep it civil.

jp

[MuscleRodz]

i got a dash full of autometer gauges next to a TV molded into the dash. what do you call that? ghetto faboulous or practical and comfortable?

How do you think I got my wife to let me spend the money and go on long haul trips we will be taking all over the country in my Camaro. It wasn't the LT-1 6 speed and roll cage.

Mike

[slownova]

Slow,
A bit of an overstatement, no? Please keep it civil.

jp

ok sorry, not stupid, just negative.

[parsonsj]

Slow,

Sorry ... I was a bit unclear. I wasn't commenting on the "negative" part. I was commenting on the "everyone" part.

btw, my wife and kids expect entertainment in our cars. Both of my children have portable DVD players that they take on the road, so I do understand where you're coming from. Please tell me you won't watch TV while driving though. There are enough idiots around here that read while driving.

jp

[JohnUlaszek]

John,
Please, they are not idiots, just mentally challenged. Please keep the thread on topic and don't bash the wonderful mentally challenged drivers in the DC metro area.

[68protouring454]

kickass dash, love the tv, so many options, navigation and so on, thats cool
jake

[slownova]

Slow,

Sorry ... I was a bit unclear. I wasn't commenting on the "negative" part. I was commenting on the "everyone" part.

btw, my wife and kids expect entertainment in our cars. Both of my children have portable DVD players that they take on the road, so I do understand where you're coming from. Please tell me you won't watch TV while driving though. There are enough idiots around here that read while driving.

jp

everyone? im not trying to start anything here, however anytime anyone produces anything "diffrent" everyones quick to speak thier mind. datsbad's thread proved that, and furthermore this thread. everyone has thier own opinions on everything and thats the reason the world goes around like it does. and i don't think you got my comment at all about the dash. it wasn't a matter of a tv, it was a comment about the race with the pleasure, same with the suspention parts i used vs 19s and 22s i have. im not trying to say my cars going to handle like a F-1 car but i am saying im building my car for me and im going to auto-cross it and enjoy every day of finishing it all all ive gotten was " that belongs on a hot rod site, not a pro-tour site". once again i am young but i did graduate high school and tried to leave the drama behind, now its like im at the old folks home and stole someones jello.

[Zefhix]

Lets start a new trend...ready?
Pro-Touring is complaining about what pro-touring is.

I guess some are in it for the cars and others are in it for themselves. All that I know is that when my time comes, my coffin better be steel with a glass top, custom interior and handles made from a 4-axis CNC machine.

[slownova]

yea we all go out to our garages and work on our cars becouse its what we enjoy. if someone want to smooth thier frame, then so be it. if someone wants put 22s on thier car, then so be it. we all do what we feel is right. i guess i don't know alot about cars and im trying to learn. maybe i made a mistake using the rims i did, maybe i didn't, however it is my car and my goals.

[parsonsj]

Slow,

I agree with you. It's really all about the fun of working on them. Creating stuff, fixing stuff, and learning stuff. My car is off to the paint shop next week ... I'm already wondering what I'll do with all my spare time.

jp

[Bill Howell]

Yup, that is my opinion. What's the point of having good suspension if you never use its full potential? Why can't show people be happy with refurbished stock suspension, chromed tubular arms, and stock geometry?
I'd rather live on Top Ramen and sale my suspension only to those who use it for its intended use. I didn't get into this business for money. I design both street and race suspension. If my customer with street suspension regularly drives his car on street, I'm happy. I hate to see cars with my suspension getting trailered from show to show.

Ok, Since it looks like ths thread will never die, let me open a new part of the equation.

Katz, no doubt you are one of the more vocal members when it comes to suspension and it's role in pro-touring. Denny is another, but I know where he stands on this question.
Does your car have a LS1 or if not is it fuel injected or carb?
What is your opinion about that aspect of the sport?
This is in not way meant to put you on the spot, I am just curious. There are some here that think LSx is a must. While I would love to have one, I know I will probably always stick to the carb. way of doing things. Since your car actually sees the track and you also drive it on trips, I hope you tell me it has a carb.