Pro-Touring Show Cars?

[yody]

sorry, didn't mean too, but i think it is pretty obvious, that more than a few people are a little upset over this. We already had this discussion months ago. THis is the exact same conversation.

[parsonsj]

more than a few people are a little upset over this

That's possible, though I really haven't seen much evidence of people being upset in this thread ... at least so far.

I'd like to see people discussing with data, rather then with emotion and generalization.

How about we try this:

What elements do people see that defines a show car? Does a smoothed firewall? Shaved door handles? Candy paint job? Do any of these elements belong on a Pro-Touring car? If not, why not? If so, why? Do show car elements automatically keep a car from being Pro-Touring?

I'm not really looking for the typical "who cares?" type response. If you don't care, don't respond. If you have an opinion, share it. If you disagree with somebody else's opinion, that's OK. It's OK to say so. If you disagree, try and articulate why you disagree. Name-calling and personal attacks won't be tolerated.

jp

[Nine Ball]

Here is a photo I snapped tonight of my car. Now, you "racecar guys" don't get mad at me for entering it in a show, at least I left the dial-in ET on the windows LOL!



For those that are curious, this is the annual Chevy/Corvette Expo in Houston, held at the George R. Brown convention center. Starts tomorrow, ends Sunday evening.

PS, burnt rubber is a PITA to clean off!

Tony

[parsonsj]

I watched Andrew Borodin clean burnt rubber off his GTO with WD40. Now that was shiny paint!

jp

[Bill Howell]

JP and others,
One thing I read here is that some are certain that you have to have a vehicle capable of road racing to be pro-touring. Others feel you have to drag race. For what it is worth, alot of us are not in the proximity of a road course track. So maybe since we know we will not have the opportunity to ever road race, we do not get overly concerned with that aspect of the sport. Believe me, if I could, I would be on a tract regularly, but the only racing I have access to is a drag strip. Maybe this factors in to the picture too.
One thing is for sure, people are passionate about their rides and some take offense faster than others. Personally, I don't feel another 1000 post here will change anyone's opinion but it is entertaining to see some get so worked up over nothing. It might be better to have series of questions and take a poll. That way everyone could voice their opinions, we would know what the majority thought and no one would be personally attacked.Take the same poll every six months-we have almost doubled in size in the last six months and at that rate of growth, we may find the general concensus is ever changing. This is just an observation of an old man
It is past my bedtime now, goodnight everyone,
Bill

[Nine Ball]

Good idea Bill. I'd be curious as to how the visitors on this site define "pro-touring".

My opinion? "Pro-Touring" cars look cool, but are mostly too slow for my tastes.

[Bill Howell]

My opinion? "Pro-Touring" cars look cool, but are mostly too slow for my tastes.

Speaking of slow- are you sandbagging with that 10.78 on the windshield? I thought I read somewhere you were in or close to the 9's? Then again I am old so it could have just been a senior moment.

Edit: Never mind me. I found the thread. You were in the 11's when the article was written and now running 10.78 and working on 9's. I wish my sled would run 11's. It was a senior thing- sorry

[B Cichocki]

Hmmm...
First off, let me say that I fail to see the goal of this discussion. (Unless we're trying to exclude people from this site.) Hot rodding in the universal sense is about building a car that suits your own needs/wants and doing with it what you see fit. That being said, I think the real meat of this dialogue is with some folks taking issue with certain cars being labeled "pro-touring." My personal feeling is that 22" wheels and air-ride suspension do not a g-machine make. That kind of stuff leans more toward the street-rod route, but that's just my opinion. Bear in mind- I'm not saying those things are bad (I would like to put air-ride on my '68 Impala), but they don't contribute any performance gain to what I think constitutes a pro-touring car.

I've been hanging around this site since 2000 or so, and have always been under the impression that the goal of a pro-touring build was to have a road-course capable car. Not that you have to beat the hell out of it day in and day out, but that you could if you wanted to. That's what I'm trying to do with my Chevelle, and what I think I've done with my Mustang. I'll keep the discussion here to the Chevelle. It's got all of the requisite P-T stuff: all of the global west crap, bigass brakes, a cage, sparco seats, a high power motor, etc... It's probably gonna weigh in like a pig, but it should be able to hold it's own on a track. It'll have blingy 19" (I know, I know... function following form) Fikses for the street, but if the track starts to call out, I'll have a dedicated set of 18" CCWs with race rubber.

That being said, I'm ULTRA particular about my cars- that's what happens when you grow up from day one with a father into concours restorations. The paint and body, plating, and interior have all been handled by shops that do cars for Pebble Beach. I personally can't see doing something if you don't do it right. I'm not saying that everyone should have a Pebble Beach car, but there's definitely something to be said for attention to detail. To me that's part of pro-touring. It's all well and good for a racecar to be rough around the edges and have a maaco paint job. But pro-touring is NOT about building racecars. If I wanted to build a track-whore, I would be building a track-whore. So does a killer paint job make my car perform any worse? Hardly. Will I be beating the hell out of this car all the time? The Magic 8 Ball says: "outlook not so good." I'm not about to toast a car with so much time, energy, and money tied up in it. But that doesn't make it any less capable. Hell, I don't even live near any major road-courses. If having a car that is considered pro-touring includes the mandatory frequent flogging on a road-course, then I (and alot of other members on this board) better pack up shop and move out to Cali. (edit: Bill beat me to it.) Anyway, that's my take on it. I'm building a concours show car with the stones to back up the look.

I also found this statement quite interesting:

But why the hell do they have to waste killer suspension and sticky tires on cars that will never be used? As a suspension engineer, I seriously get disgusted and offended by this.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that in order to have a trick suspension setup on your car, you must wring it out on the track? By that logic we should all be driving bone-stock civics on the street because there's no need for performance if it's not on a racetrack. If anything, you should be happy that people who aren't dedicated racers are taking an interest in high performance suspension components for their cars. Not only does it open up a broader clientele and marketplace than has been seen in the past, it would seem to put money in your pocket.

-Brian (who's been spending more and more time around C-C.com and wanting to build a track whore)

[Salt Racer]

...For what it is worth, alot of us are not in the proximity of a road course track...

I drove my 40-year old Buick from Seattle to Vegas to Fresno to Rosamond (Willow Spring Raceway) and back to Seattle to see my friends and to run my car on the track during my last vacation. And I'm going back to SoCal in April to run Buttonwillow. Why? 'cause Seattle weather sucks and I enjoy driving.

...Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that in order to have a trick suspension setup on your car, you must wring it out on the track?...

Yup, that is my opinion. What's the point of having good suspension if you never use its full potential? Why can't show people be happy with refurbished stock suspension, chromed tubular arms, and stock geometry?

...Not only does it open up a broader clientele and marketplace than has been seen in the past, it would seem to put money in your pocket...

I'd rather live on Top Ramen and sale my suspension only to those who use it for its intended use. I didn't get into this business for money. I design both street and race suspension. If my customer with street suspension regularly drives his car on street, I'm happy. I hate to see cars with my suspension getting trailered from show to show.

[yody]

I think I have the answer to all of this nonsense. It is a way better thought out thought than before I believe that a lot of the guys here and all over arent' really into "pro-touring", the new "mainstream" car building is hotrod/restomod or whatever they call it, the chip foose/boyd coddington, troy trepanier builds/style. These are show cars that use certain aspects of the pro-touring style. These are the new breed of show cars and are VERY popular. What seems to be happening is people recognize pro-touring as mainstream now and are taking certain aspects of the pro-touring genre in building their cars. They come to this site and participate and take away what they need. Like the twin turbo boyd vetter, no one called that a protouring car, the owner posted here. It was a show car that took some of the pro-touring fashion and combined it, should we kick him off? did he ever say his car was protouring? IF he posted project updates of his car should we attack him? Now if they are going out and calling their cars protouring that isn't exactly correct, but so what...its gonna happen. there are always posers or just plain confused people...so what? I really like these new style of show cars. People actually drive them a little more, as you can see on teh power tour. They are geared towards performance a lot more than the previous show cars. I think that B Cichocki summed it up in a very good way, better than i can say it. This is a topic that keeps seeming to come up. BTW nineball.....so how does that car handle? time for a road coarse!! IF it can turn as good as it goes straight you might consider entering in teh RSE contest, you might just win.....if it can turn!

[yody]

Hey katz maybe you should work for a race team, or nascar if you hate seeing your parts on cars that don't race. (no sarcasm intended)

[Salt Racer]

I actually searched for employment opportunity on American LeMans website last year. Unfortunately, none of them are in SoCal (closest one was in Sonoma). I'm fed up with cold rainy weather. I need 90+* weather.

Fortunately, my prospective employer and I will campaign a race car in NASA, AV8SS or whatever our car would fit in, and the job will be in San Diego area.

One thing for certain, I'm leaving AME sometime during summer/fall this year. I'm done with street rods.

[zbugger]

Hey Katz, I'm near Sonoma, and we've had a lot less rain than So-Cal lately. On top of that, there's quite a few members you could hang out with here.

[yody]

yeah bugger will trade food and shelter for friendship

[Silverbird]

I think the fact that were on this site not to mention getting heated up about basically a silly subject as to what is "Pro-Touring" is why cars are being built as nice as they are.
We love them. We spend time with them, we spend a lot of time just staring at them and thinking of things to do with them. The fact of the matter is if you are just for performance than take all the money your putting in performance parts and buy a C6.
My Firebird is pushing twice the horse power as my c6 has wider tires, I've ridiculous money on suspension parts and tuning yet will never be as fast or handle as well.
But to me that is not the point. My Firebird is much more than just a track car. It has character, it's my own personal expression of what I think is cool.
The thing that got me into the hobby regardless of what you want to call it Pro-touring or whatever was the whole engineering aspect of building on a platform that is basically a brick with suspension of a shopping cart.
Again this is a hobby. Some of the guys that seem to be performance snobs act like you only get one car in your life and it has to kick ass on the track or your a sell out.
Why are we driving old iron? Is it because it's the best platform for performance? Because it's the cheapest way to performance?
Lighten up.
I am more of a performance and engineering oriented person but I don't see the guys that pay more attention to looks and fit and finish being half as anal as the rest of us.
To me if your into building and engineering it doesn't stop at suspension. I love my Bird I want to spend a lot of time behind the wheel so I want it to be as comfortable as possible A.C.,leather blah, blah. Their is just as much fun in building looks and comfort as performance.
Anyway I'm rambling. My point is if its a hobby which I think speaks for most of us. Then your going to keep kicking it up a notch. Making your ride faster, handle better and look sweeter.

[DarkBuddha]

Anyone notice the recent Pro-touring trend of going blah blah blah ? Damn people...

[parsonsj]

So I've been out in the garage tonight. I'm welding tabs to my frame. For what, you ask?

So the car can be securely tied to a trailer. I admit it. My car will ride on a trailer next week to the body and paint place. It's likely it will ride on a trailer a few times after it's done this summer. No doubt the car will appear in some shows.

I've also been sanding the underside of the car, getting it ready for paint. Will this increase performance? Nope. Will any of this effort even be seen by others? Doubtful. It's just something I gotta do because otherwise that little voice will mock me: "you could have built it just a little better".

On the other hand, I'm not grinding any of the floor welds. And not all of 'em are pretty. I could spend weeks smoothing 'em all out: that damned floor has over 200 individual pieces of steel welded together. I'm also not gonna do it because grinding welds can weaken them (due to metal removal), and because I want a hand-built look (though deep in my heart I know the first reason is the most important to my decision).

That's just me, and I'm happy to deal with criticism for that. Hopefully some of the other elements of the car will make up for those unground welds.

jp

[David Pozzi]

The basis for a PT car should be well rounded performance and comfort. Some will have better cosmetics, others will lean toward the G-Machine or Street Fighter types, but all will vary in one way or another.

I hope there will allways be room for all here. A lot of effort has been spent by Larry and the Moderators, - trying to offer a variety of sections to discuss what is important to the members. The new track section should benefit the racy guys. One of the nice things about this site is the variety of cars and build styles. I hope the hardcore perf guys don't go somewhere else, this site is a great rescource of information, both harcore and cosmetic.

[Salt Racer]

Hey Katz, I'm near Sonoma, and we've had a lot less rain than So-Cal lately. On top of that, there's quite a few members you could hang out with here.

yeah bugger will trade food and shelter for friendship

LOL, you guys crack me up. My new boss is a good friend of mine, and he's kinda like me - our brains are full of wacky ideas which we're just dying to try out! I'm really looking foraward to this new job.

...Some of the guys that seem to be performance snobs act like you only get one car in your life and it has to kick ass on the track or your a sell out....

As one of prominent peformance snob SOBs (no offense taken BTW, I actually like the sound of that) on this site, I have to say...

We're not exactly like you described above. I'm sure other fellow P.S.SOBs will agree with me that, the reason why we got disturbed was the fact that many members seemed to have aesthetics as the priority over function, and that it seems that many of them don't even give a fu(k about function at all. This is evident that JohnU was labeled as the negative-minded Ahole when he innocently pointed out possible ill effects of smoothing structural part with Bondo. That's not what pro touring is about, and this is pro touring.com.

It's public forum so everyone's invited, of course. It's totally fine by me if die-hard show car snobs post on this site to share some info. But, if someone posts show-oriented question or pics that would hinder practicality and performance here, he/she should expect to get some criticism. If they can't take that and all they want is compliments and butt kissing, they really should go elsewhere.

Do I go to pro-showcars.com and call someone a dumbass b/c he smoothed his subframe w/o doing G-mod? No, b/c people go to pro-showcars.com to see pretty cars and share info about them. If I post pics of my rusty but functional home-brew suspension there, would I expect someone calling it ugly piece of ****? Absolutely, and I'd be totally cool with it.

Bondo-subframe is very pretty, but it's impractical at best. His effort will be wasted the first time he hits a speed bump little too fast. Can you drive a car like that on regular basis, or is it even fun driving constantly worrying about rock chips and scrapes? Maybe to some people, but not to Pro Tourers. Pro Touring is about driving.

If someone shows up at a road course in a near-stock Camaro and have a ball driving it, he's a real Pro Tourer in my book even if he gets the slowest lap time of the day and he has a cool PT car even if it had 15" wheels. If the same guy comes back with show-quality paint job, nicely detailed undercarriage and still thrashes his car, he's still a Pro Tourer and the car is a kickass PT car. If he keeps detailing the car to the point of being impractical and he gets afraid of driving it, he's no longer a Pro Tourer and the car is no longer a PT car.

That's how us P.S. SOBs look at it.

All that said, personally I think the Bondo-subframe thread would have taken a different direction if it was posted in Paint/Body section instead of suspension section. Read descriptions...

Suspension - Discuss all aspects of suspension geometry, packaging, hardware, and theory.

Paint & Body - Discuss paint and body work, custom body modifications, and more.

[Jim Nilsen]

To me a show car can be interpreted many ways depending on the point in question.

You say your car is fast , Show me !

You say your car can corner , Show me !

You say your car has A/C, Show me ! Etc....

You see , it's all about the point in question as to whether someone can " Show " you something and have it matter to you.

I like to believe a Pro- Touring car is a total show car in many ways. If you feel that the quality and Craftmanship have gone up to more show level cars here then that is a reflection on all of us helping each other have it all.

My car will be at a level of Craftsmanship that I can feel proud to say I did that myself. I just happen to have this voice that says I can do as good as the guy that does it perfect. If I can achieve it it will make my car a show car in how it looks. It's not intended to be a show car to win a prize for how it looks, it is a show car because I want to enjoy having others see what it will do and what I can do !!!!

But the real kind of show car that I want will start out as a gem and "Show" up at the track.

You gotta love open discussion to keep the mind going!!!!

Jim Nilsen