Yet Another E85 Thread.....

[shmoov69]

LOL
Ok, so my car is carb'd and pressure-ized. (SP?)

*Will this stuff work without any other adjustments?
*If so, anything I need to worry about?
*If not, what do I need to do to make it work?
*Is it worth it to use?
*Will it mix with normal unleaded?



Thanks!

[Shawn MacAnanny]

It will destroy any rubber lines, rubber seals, carb gaskets and really your entire fuel system. It has to be setup to run alcohol. You will also need to richen your carb by around 20-30% if i remember correctly. Its worth if it you need the extra octane and have E85 readilly available.

[shmoov69]

Thanks, I was wondering if I would get any feedback! The car is kinda' rich now under boost, it is available, but it is NOT set up for alky.
Any others tried?

[MonzaRacer]

Honestly if you have boost give a few carb shops a call on recalibrating your carb.
You will use more fuel, the jetting needs to be upped about 20 percent minimum and buy a wideband o2 sensor kit and 3 sensors and bungs, to tune with.
At cruise at 60deg normally on E85 your looking at 9.0 to 1 to 9.6 to 1 AF/R .
under power keep richening till you loose power, this stuff has 105 octane, but you still gotta watch your AF/R.
Pro built carb will get you closer and with less heartache.
Trust me i have been helping a few E85 converts, I still prefer EFI from Megasquirt with fuel sensor.
Good Luck.

[darkostoj]

I know of many people running E85 on their stock setups....its not corrosive like everyone makes it out to be

You can buy metering blocks with an E85 tune from summit and that will get you in the ball park.

[gearheads78]

There are several posts on turbomustangs.com about blow through e85 combos. Lots of good reading.

[MonzaRacer]

One of the new car mags has a GT500 in it thats making1000hp on E85 with boost

[DJW32]

Monzaracer,
Do you know which magazine has that article?

[MonzaRacer]

Its car craft.
Actually the only thing you have to worry about is water collection and rust, ethanol isnt corrosive, Methanol is.

[MonzaRacer]

E85 ETHANOL MYTHS

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.

[John Wright]

Nascar switched over to E85 and it seemed like every race was a gas mileage race....before the switch, there were only a handful of tracks were gas mileage ever played a part in a race.

[shmoov69]

Wow! That's an old thread!!

Well, you will NEVER convince me that the corn grown for ethanol will ever be good for the food industry. It made just about everything go up in price that had to do with farming, which in turn made just about all the food prices go up....considerably.
The government being so heavily involved with it (pushing it) also makes me very skeptical.
The energy involved to produce it still is not a efficient trade.
And another that has affected some areas slightly is the amount of water it takes to produce. There has been some water table issues around some of the plants. I'm not real up to date on that fact, but I do know there has been some concern by locals around the plants.

So, some of the "busted myths" don't appear to be too unbiased IMO. Good discussion tho! ;)

[MonzaRacer]

Jimmy, ethanol isnt a lost energy product, it takes about 33k to 3k btu to produce one gallon of 77k btu fuel grade ethanol.
Now dont go blaming everything on ethanol production as a large part comes from left overs from making HFCS (high Fructose corn syrup), corn starches, corn oil, etc AND left overs create cattle feed.
Food prices from what information several college groups are finding is the devaluation of the dollar NOT freaking ethanol.
NOW dont for get it the tree hugging liberal idiots that "mandated" oxygenates in our fuel, at time no ethanol infrastructure so MTBE, which is by product of petroleum distillation, and its cheap. THEN as fuel get reformulated more production goes down, it gets more expensive.
Now another issue shows up in lat 90s, MTBE is polluting ground water and its toxic to infants,kids and pregnant women.
SO the next best NON TOXIC oxygenate is ethanol, and technology, other food/food stuff that can support some ethanol production is in place. Now when the farmers were being paid to not plant anything (land bank) and other crops get cheaper than we can produce them,,,farmers are going broke. So there is sugar beets, sorghum, and cattle feed corn are used for ethanol production,
NOW the subsidies were supposed to start sunsetting in '09 or '10 as they were there to simply help get infrastructure set up (ie plants to make it available).
I have yet to see any damage on cars with E10, E85 is awesome as race fuel and I hope to run it in my Monza and maybe my Caprice down the road,,,been working on a sellable E85 FI kit but got so much gaff for it I set it aside.
The bad thing is the Democrats reset the subsidies back to where they used to be. Again it take act of Congress to MAKE something start but a literal miracle to ever let something DIE.
Now figure out this one, E85 DOES help American farmers, so dollars over seas or dollars to American farmers,,,no brainer
E85 generally will end up even with out subsidies similar in price to 87/89 octane fuels.
E85 does keep things clean and as long as you not vented to atmosphere, which you really shouldnt be anyway, doesnt really cause issues but minor amount of care in storage and car design is needed.
Pretty much any fuel line you buy today in rubber or plastic, is ethanol compatible.
E85 with simple timing/jet change can actually, from evidence, make more power, give you MORE knock resistance, especially under boost apps, and it just plain works, if you can find cheaper 105+ octane then by all means go for it.
BUT E85 local to me is no more than 10 miles away and if my car is set up to run it and gas with little issue, I like that.
Here is a link from about 5 or 6 yrs and 30 pages where guys are suing it, making more power and its tried and true evidence:
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/turbo-tech-questions-only!!!/1000rwhp-with-$2-fuel-e85-is-pretty-cool-stuff/

Think about it several guys are making more power from filling up and adjusting accordingly and spending less for fuel.
I know when I worked in Bloomington cheapest race fuel was 110 TurboBlue/Cam 2 at 5.999 a gallon,,,,local E85 to me the other day is 2.999.
So if I can get my fuel half price, use maybe 25% to 40% more its still saves me money AND it IS legal in street.
I know one thing if the local farmers including people who farm my families land are making money off of selling corn, Im happy. I also know that UNLESS its fouled for human consumption, human food stuff corn doesnt go into ethanol production and the areas that sell seed corn sell approximately X% food corn and X% cattle feed in areas, this is way local seed grain suppliers get specific amounts of each type needed to meet their estimated supplies for following year.
I know last year we (family) planted mostly cattle feed, year before mostly human food grade corn, but in all respect I cant tell difference as my grandfather taught me when to go pull ears before it hardened to we could get corn on cob from field, not bad actually.
Oh and Im still alive too. Supposedly because cattle have four stomachs its different hardness and other issues they can break the other type down easier. big thing I like about local plant is that friend buys wet and dry cattle feed and his beef is always awesome as he only feeds enough grass/clover/alfalfa to keep the meat quality up. And its cheaper than regular cattle feed and higher protein for them.
A few stupid people bash something yet never do enough research, then people similar to you get jaded by bad information and incorrect application of it.
I for one will plan for its use, use it and recommend it to people as cheap high octane alternative till it goes away, which wont be very soon. If my taxes are subsidizing int then Ill get my moneys worth!