1st gen camaro with TVS

[Bad94]

Im doing a 1968 Camaro that getting a TVS kit, and the exhaust is in the way of the rear swaybar dog bones.

I talked to frank, and he gave me a few ideas. But does anyone have any pics of there rear swaybar with dual exhaust.

Thanks Dan

[TitoJones]

Don't run a rear sway bar, it will make the car oversteer like crazy.

Tyler

[Bad94]

Don't run a rear sway bar, it will make the car oversteer like crazy.

Tyler

thats what frank told me, but i hate not to run it, this car will never see the auto x. this is just a driver.

[chicane67]

thats what frank told me, but i hate not to run it, this car will never see the auto x. this is just a driver.

All the more important not to run one then.

In a controlled environment like that of an autoX... it would be somewhat easier to control the effects of over-steer as you have more room to maneuver and there are less things in proximity to hit when the chassis gets loose.

Just think about that when your on the street. Its either that... or dial a bunch of toe-out into the front alignment to combat a snap oversteer effect in street trim if you ever get to any aggressive driving during your commute.

[Lowend]

... but oversteer is so much fun

[Tony C.]

So my question would be, why would a reputable company like Hotchkis use a rear sway bar in their vehicle and also promote it in their TVS kit? I know that there are various discussions on this subject and it confuses me. I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.

Tony C.

[jknight16]

Personally, I would heed Tom and Tyler's advice. If they say it's not necessary, you'd probably better save yourself some coin and not run a rear bar.

[Tyler Beauregard]

So my question would be, why would a reputable company like Hotchkis use a rear sway bar in their vehicle and also promote it in their TVS kit? I know that there are various discussions on this subject and it confuses me. I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.

Tony C.

Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positve caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effeciveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a streering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experince it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly aquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency manuevers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without duing your due dilegence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

[toofun]

I can speak from experience... a bad experience.... DONT RUN THE REAR SWAY BAR!!

Mark
TOOFUN

[Bad94]

But what do i do with the rear bar? just not put it on and hope the hell to sell it and give some $$ back to him?

The car has all new front end bushings, bodymounts. The rear leaf bushing were the only thing that wasnt updated by the last shop that worked on it. But we have changed that.

[Brand X]

Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positve caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effeciveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a streering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experince it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly aquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency manuevers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without duing your due dilegence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

I'm glad I found your post. I'm new to the whole pro-touring/muscle car scene and was already about to purchase the TVS kit. Learned alot by reading your post.

[Norm Peterson]

I planned on using a 3/4" rear bar in my 72 Nova with a 1 1/8" front sway bar. Guess I'll just have to drive around with it and without it to find out what my car does better with.

This is not a legitimate thing to test on the street.

It is absolutely not something to do for a client whose driving credentials are completely unknown.

There is not nearly enough vehicle information to estimate just how loose it might be, but looseness that tends to get worse if you either decelerate (most peoples' normal reaction) or accelerate (assuming that circumstances even allow this to be a realistic choice) is a very scary place to find yourself. Trust me on this.

If you must experiment with this, do so at an auto-X, as the penalties there are normally limited to a few cones worth of time penalty or a DNF for that run . . . and wounded pride for having looped it in front of knowledgeable witnesses (who if asked are likely to tell you the same thing that you're hearing here).

If this were your own car and you still insist on connecting it up and driving it that way on the street (which for the record I strongly discourage), drive it gently - and if you feel any "looseness" or tail happiness AT ALL, under any circumstances, take it off ASAP. ASAP as in bring a couple of wrenches so you can disconnect one endlink to deactivate that rear bar on the spot.

Normal mild to moderate street driving only hints at what lies beyond in still harder driving, so what feels like only a little loose in normal driving will not stay little when you absolutely need the car to be more predictable rather than less so. If you haven't been there, you can't imagine it.

Something to keep in mind . . .no matter how badly you WANT the thing to work, emotional desires and mental energy can't change the physics.


Norm

[70camaro406]

Very good words of wisdom.

What do you guys (Tyler and Norm) recommend for 2nd gen Camaros?

I was planning on GEN II Racing stuff from Pro-TouringF-body.com: springs, shocks, sway bars, chassis stiffening items, solid mounts, competition upper A-arms with solid pivots, spherical lower A-arm bushings, all new HD steering components, fast ratio steering box (GM 600), etc. Should I leave the rear bar out also? I know that the 2nd gen cars were improved over the 1st gens as far as geometry and so forth. Just want to hear your thoughts on them.

Thanks,

Wayne

[79T/Aman]

BAD94 as a thought on your post, many feel that if they bought a part it should be used, not so especialy if it has negative effects that can even make a car dangerous.
Same thing on the 2nd gens don't run a rear bar, however you may want to try a small bar to help tune the car to the way YOU feel comfortable, I agree with Tyler's post and I'll ad that handling is more than just the sum of a car's parts but a combination of those parts and the DRIVER, and as Tyler pointed out modernizing the parts without correcting the inherant geometry deficiencies of the suspension.

[69LT1Nova]

Well... crap... I have the TVS kit on my Nova. I'll put the rear sway bar on and see what it feels like. If it sucks I'll disconnect it, drive to Hotchkiss HQ, and throw it through their front window.

[Norm Peterson]

I'm pretty sure that the 70's Camaros could be had with small to medium size rear bars, but that isn't very meaningful in itself and doesn't necessarily translate to whether it would work in a different chassis. Need to at least know the front bar size and the spring rates front and rear.

That said, I did ride with a guy who drove a big-block (402) Camaro that had both front and rear bars back in my TSD rallying days (I navigated). Can't remember the year or much more about the car - it's been over 30 years since - other than he eventually stiffened up both bars once he mostly quit autocross and stopped worrying about classing limitations. Stiffer bushings as I recall, not sure about any bar diameter increases.


Norm

[70camaro406]

...Need to at least know the front bar size and the spring rates front and rear.
Norm

Right now, I'm figuring 750# for the front springs with a 1 1/4" bar, and 225# rear springs. Tire-wise, i'm going to use either a 315/35-17 or 285/40-17 for the rear, and either 275/40-17 or 245/45-17 for the front....if that makes any difference.

[CarlC]

Well.....

One thing to consider is that the Hotchkis rear bar has a very low effective rate. The bar mounts very far inboard and has long arms, hence making the effective rate at wheel very low. When I ran it at the track there was little difference with the spring/shock setup that was on the car at that time. When Hotchkis developed this sway bar package they intended the rear bar to be a minor tuning tool. Given the minor effect on perfromance, and the subsequent spring change, I eliminated it from future use. I suggest trying it first without the bar before drilling holes in the rear seat pan.

Oh, and a set of Flowmaster tailpipes will fit just fine with the rear bar.

How ya been Tommy? It's been a while.

[chicane67]

How ya been Tommy? It's been a while.

[understated] BUSY [/understated] ...and things just keep spiraling work up to no end. Maybe... some day... Ill start getting to the pile of parts that have been building up and actually get something accomplished on the hotrod. How are things on your end ?? We'll have to catch up soon...


On the subject of stay-bars (stablizer/sway... whatever your vernacular)... a rear bar isn't necessary unless you are correcting for, or tuning around, inadequate/improper spring rates or spring rates higher than most will ever deal with in a street chassis.

People most often just shake their heads in dis-belief when I tell them that I use a 320 in/lb rear spring rate... in combination with what seems like a paltry rate up front in comparison (720 in/lb)... and even shake their heads more so when I tell them that a rear bar isn't even necessary with a Hotchkis type (aka. leaf spring type) suspension. I guess they just don't seem to understand the implication of chassis balance without the use of band-aids (a rear bar being just that) or of the involved kinematics. The general populus has been berated over the last few decades with, "Bigger sway bars are better." In my opinion, a Hotchkis type rear suspension doesn't need a rear bar until you get into the 350 to 375 in/lb range in rate... and even then, I have only used a 0.500 to 0.5625" bar to tune around subtle kinematic irregularities in the specific chassis... and nothing bigger.

Just as Tyler stated, spring rate balance and damper valving are the key. The spring controls the mass... the damper controls the spring. All the stay-bar does is compliment the spring... and it has no other job to do outside of a response to yaw. And it is also true that most people want to spend the least to get the most. The aftermarket cats have been doing this for years... and it was a simple way to improve the characteristics of the OEM suspension... vice that of replacing all the necessary components to correct for the inadequacies in the simplicity of design some forty years ago. It was the mind-frame of, "Installing a bigger bar will net you more of an improvement in handling per dollar spent than almost anything else you can do." That same mindset, in todays terms, is no longer anywhere near being valid.

One thing I must convey... superior high-speed handling is more than just high cornering power. It must include a balance of both high cornering power and correct yaw response characteristics. A car with superior high-speed handling is produced only by the systematic modification of a wide range of suspension components. Just bolting on a sway bar or some other part won’t get the job done. Lastly, as cornering speeds get higher, the suspension system must get stiffer in order to handle the increased energy levels. Big bars work great at low speeds... but suffer the consequences everywhere else.

Norm's ideal is the best. Get somewhere to do it right... and take some simple tools. You will also want to play around with the toe settings as well. There is a fine line that is easily crossed in terms of under/oversteer dealing with rear bars and the toe adjustment.

[zbugger]

Mary Pozzi runs a rear bar on her 2nd gen. She road races it, auto crosses it, And drives it on the street. It's a Hotchkis bar that has been modified. To say the 2nd gen outright doesn't need a rear bar is not true. My own '77 improved handling by putting a factory 5/8" rear bar on it. I've swapped to firmer springs out back, so once I get the car on the road I will have to determine whether I need one or not. I'm also changing the wheels and tires, and that will also weigh on my decision.

I see too many people thinking bigger is better and putting 3/4" and 1" bars out back. They'll take a turn at 20-25 mph thinking the car is on rails, but the car will slide everywhere if they go any faster. Bigger is not always better. Rear wheel/tire width will also have a decision on what you need out back. A bar is a tuning device. If you plan on testing, try an empty parking lot. Don't go out on the street and do it.