Guldstrand mod ??

**Steve1968LS2** · 02-24-2005

Originally Posted by harshman

Yah, that’s the question that I want answered. What do those high priced arms do for the geometry of the suspension anyways? It seems that I have yet to get a firm answer backed up by before and after tests. I have fabed many things from scratch and know that the materials used in the arms are worth all of about $25 each at the most. I guess I’m a tad bit skeptical and have yet to hear some tech to back these things up.

Wouldn't that be a great challenge.. a stock subframe with Guldstrand mod vs a stock subframe with upper lower arms vs an aftermarket subframe with aftermarket arms..

Oh wait.. we had that thread already ;)

Well they sure look purty.. and they are sometimes lighter..

**68BNUT** · 02-24-2005

well hopefully by the end of march ill be able to be the one with stock sub frame G-mod and GW uppers and delalums all around.

**Marcus SC&C** · 02-24-2005

Trapin,I have to agree with Tyler. The G mod certainly does alter the caster because the cross shaft holes are shifted rearward,increasing + caster. Lowering the holes changes the camber curves for the better (as you said) but it also raises the RC height which reduces body roll. You may have misunderstood Kyle because his own UCA kits include a jig to redrill the cross shaft mounting holes ala G mod,the numbers are just a little bit different.

68BNUT, I haven`t used the Howe UCAs but they should work just as good as any of the other circle track UCAs. I`ve always been pleased with the quailty of Howe parts,that`s why I`m a dealer.

That said I prefer PolePosition arms for most applications for their adjustability and modular design.

On tubular vs. stamped arms,tubular arms are often (usually,especially LCAs) heavier than stock arms. The primary goal of many tubular arms is simply to look cool. They add little or nothing at all to performance by themselves. They *may* be part of a larger picture though (ie.shorter to allow a taller spindle,adjustable for well..adjustability etc.) which is all good of course. They may be slightly more rigid or stronger than stock arms but then I can`t remember the last time I broke a control arm... The stock GM LCAs with press in LBJs do sometimes crack around the LBJ area but they can be reinforced pretty easily. Don`t get me wrong, I like tubular arms myself for certain applications and I`ve fabricated more than a few sets myself (upper and lower) for various reasons (use with coilovers,to widen the track width,to convert from king pins to BJs etc.). It`s just that they`re often credited with feats beyond their capabilities. Short answer:do the G mod,you`ve got nothing to loose. Marcus SC&C

**harshman** · 02-24-2005

Originally Posted by Steve1969LS1

Wouldn't that be a great challenge.. a stock subframe with Guldstrand mod vs a stock subframe with upper lower arms vs an aftermarket subframe with aftermarket arms..

Oh wait.. we had that thread already ;)

Well they sure look purty.. and they are sometimes lighter..

We are beggin’ for it, now dos PHR have the balls to test it? Proving their advertisers wrong is a big thing indeed. It would be a very simple thing to do. Perform the skidpad and slalom test to a stockish car. Next install upper and lower control arms and do the same test. Next remove the aftermarket and install the stamped arms with the g-mod and test. I don’t think it is that hard to do, I just don’t know if any magazine is up for the challenge. I'll even let you use my car to test 'em.

**TitoJones** · 02-24-2005

Andy, We at ATS have done this test already. Chicane started it, and Baz67 finished it. We are debating on whether or not to release it to a mag, or keep it for ourselves.

Tyler

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**68protouring454** · 02-25-2005

any results tyler?? come on don't just tickle it
jake

**TitoJones** · 02-25-2005

I'll only say this about the test:

We tested-
Stock F body control arms
Global West upper Control arms
Detroit Speed and Engineering upper control arms
Speedtech upper control arms

Using:
Stock geometry
Guldstrand mod
DSE coil over mod

In the works:
All of the above with the re-designed ATS spindle/geometry

That is all I will say, but (and this one is for Harshman) They all have a bunch more going for them than just the 'bling' factor. They really do improve handling.

Tyler

**68protouring454** · 02-25-2005

up a little late uh??
jake

**Rick Dorion** · 02-25-2005

Tyler, at one time you said you'd be sharing the results. Is this still true? Maybe as part of the release of your spindle?

**baz67** · 02-25-2005

Since I am the one that has spent more than a few of my living days doing this I can add some. It is real close to being finished. I also decided to do caster curves with the camber curves that has added some time. The roll center will be figured with all arms in all locations at a standard camber/caster alignment. I just need to do a few more measurements and then redo a few to verify numbers. As Tyler says, the debate is still on on if and when and how to release the data. My notes alone are five pages, with some more to do, so it will be alot of information. There are many reasons why it has taken so long. We want to get it right because it may influence some in there buying choices.

Brian

**68protouring454** · 02-25-2005

sounds awesome.
i hope it does influence peoples choices, there is alot of buying going on just cause of the name and or what others are doing, and no one has evr compared products becuase of the fear of degrading a product, i for one can't wait for some real info, as for dse/gw/speedtech selling arms, they are always going to sell arms to guys who want tube arms, but guys who want the most performance will change what they are buying to gain the best performance,
git-er-done
jake

**harshman** · 02-25-2005

you guys friggin' rock!!!

now i want that information!!!

**Rick Dorion** · 02-25-2005

I understand the quandry about how to release the information. However, I would think you will want to substantiate any benefits to the new spindle and template.

**baz67** · 02-25-2005

Rick, this is all being looked at. The spindle will help in many more ways than just geometry. I will let TeeToe expand on that when he is ready to.

Mr. Harshman, I guess you should have gone bowling and not watch the kids the other weekend. There was some conversation about that that evening.

Brian

**JohnUlaszek** · 02-25-2005

I would be curious if the curves are the same left to right on a stock setup.
How much do the tolerances in the subframe effect the symmetry of the geometry and curves, and does it matter?
Katz, Pozzi?

**Rick Dorion** · 02-26-2005

Thanks, Brian. I'm looking forward to the spindle availability (and other products!).

**Tom Welch** · 02-28-2005

Excellent, an unbiased test to show how good/bad/no change these particular parts perform will benefit us in many ways. May the best product/modification win.

**trapin** · 03-02-2005

I know for a fact that I did not misunderstand what Kyle told me because I remember being surprised by his reaction to my inquiry of the Guldstrand Mod. I don't know why he told me what he did. Perhaps he wanted me to purchase the coil-over kit...who knows? As far as the geometry improvements...I'll take your word for it baz and Tito since you have the experience with the arms and I do not. I'm only going by what I've read about it.

Next time I speak to Kyle I am going to ask him about this again. But I know for a fact he told me not to bother with the Guldstrand Mod if I was purchasing his arms. In fact, Trush told me that's why he didn't do it.

But then again Trush and I don't spin our cars around road courses like you guys do. I'll be very interested to hear those experiment results (if they are ever published). I am going to revisit my sub-frame next year to refinish it and while it is apart I might just relocate the mounting points by cutting off the tabs and repositioning them rather than just drilling new holes. I guess it couldn't hurt.

Thanks for the info guys.

**David Pozzi** · 03-02-2005

I have to add that testing the arms is not as simple as just measuring camber curves, or even driving the car.
Is the highest roll center the "best"?
Is the greatest camber change the "best"?
Is the highest neg camber with wheels turned "best"?

Once the arms are on the car, the car should be not only tested but evaluated for oversteer/understeer and adjustments made to rebalance the car. I"d expect that a set of arms that works better would cause the car to oversteer since the front is now working better. But it might be worse for braking!
Just throwing out some thoughts.

**baz67** · 03-03-2005

David is correct. It is hard to peg "best" on anything to do with cars. What we are doing is finding out what looks best on paper. The real world is a different thing all together. Trying to do a real world fair comparison of each and every combo on one car with identical conditions would be damn near impossible. That leaves us with trusting what others say.

As for why DSE, GW says the same, says there is no need to do the Guldstrand mod with there arms I do not know.

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Thread: Guldstrand mod ??

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when will results come out?

baz