Guldstrand mod ??

[harshman]

I have never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer but what are the advantages of coil over compared to stock other than adjustable ride height? As far as I can see, when using the bolt on kit from QA1, the geometry hasn’t changed at all. To me the stock set up in essence is the same as a coil over. It is when you change the geometry that the coil over has some advantage. Am I correct or do I need to buy another book?

I am however diggin’ the idea of a tall modular ball joint and that has some advantages.

[68BNUT]

well the qa1's would be just for the adjustablility of ride height and I guess some wow factor for the road as I drove over (thats all the would see the bottom of my car) Ok guys thanks for all the input I definetly have a plan now,,, of course now im gonna have to take a peak at the taller spindles!!

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I have never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer but what are the advantages of coil over compared to stock other than adjustable ride height? As far as I can see, when using the bolt on kit from QA1, the geometry hasn’t changed at all. To me the stock set up in essence is the same as a coil over. It is when you change the geometry that the coil over has some advantage. Am I correct or do I need to buy another book?

I am however diggin’ the idea of a tall modular ball joint and that has some advantages.

I'm pretty sure that I once read that the purpose of coilovers is to adjust corner weight, and not ride height, even though that's what most people use them for. I'm wondering the same thing about the QA1 conversion, I can't really see any benefit to it. Something like the DSE conversion which addresses some of the other suspension issues is a different story.

[Marcus SC&C]

Mike/Harshman,the tall modular ball joints will bolt right into the stock arms. *BUT* (seems like there`s always a but,ya know?) depending on the desired alignment specs and ride height they will most probably not work properly (especially if the G mod is done as well!). There`s also a ball joint binding issue that may be caused by the stock UCA`s angled BJ mounting flange. That`s why we offer the tall BJs with adj. tubular UCAs with flat BJ plates. It`s a cause and effect thing. The idea is to make all of the components work properly together rather than just jamming a new part in here or there. I did use the tall UBJs and a mild version of the G mod on a customer`s `70 Nova once but it was limited to 0 camber and modest + caster at stock ride height,this with GW offset cross shafts and all the shims we could fit and still get the nuts on. If it had been any lower it would have been into + camber and giving away more of what had been gained with the improved geometry. The G mod is a wonderfully simple way to make notable improvements. It`s just a shame it won`t work on most other cars due to frame clearance issues and such. Marcus

[harshman]

So Marcus, what would you suggest for a first gen with the Guldstrand mod? A-arms, ball joints? What else would be beneficial? I’m getting ready to do the g-mod and install new springs and I am wondering what benefit the racing type arms (www.howeracing.com) will offer me?

[Tom Welch]

I've had my hands on some circle track arms and I'm sceptical about street use. I believe that they are well made, that the arms are strong, that they have looks, but unless they are adjustable I see no advantage. I believe that too much of a good thing is a little dangerous at times. I'm not talking about wrecking the car but wrecking the wallet for no real performance benefit, now looks on the other hand will be improved quite a bit. I purchased springs and poly bushings from Guldstrand. The price was right, the advise good. I came away from that conversation with a renewed appreciation for stock parts that are slightly modified. And a slimmer but not emaciated wallet.

[Marcus SC&C]

Harshman,that`s basically it. The Stg.1 kit with the G mod gives you darn good front suspension geometry. The adj. arms we use make it possible to run *optimum* alignment specs in spite of the G mod,tall UBJs,lower than stock ride height etc. A proper performance alignment is just as important (maybe even more so in some ways)as all the shiny parts. The Stg.2 kit adds tall tie rod ends to eliminate the factory bumpsteer (BTW they work without the kit too). I think Tom`s basically right. I can`t see a terribly good reason to use tubular upper arms that offer no added adjustability on a car with no geometry changes (unless it`s just to look cool,which is fine too). Since you`re already doing springs and the G mod,a good set of shocks would be next on my list. Bilsteins,Konis or adj. QA1s (my choice) would fit the bill. Add a 1" front bar and you`re pretty much done. Marcus

[68BNUT]

Awesome advice guys, Thanks for it all, Ive been working a bunch of OT at work so its time to get the jack stands down after next check!!
Marcus whats your companys website??

[baz67]

...If these arms are that much better, where is the data? Where is the test mule with numbers to back it up? I’m not saying that there isn’t one; I just have yet to see it.

I am doing exactly that as we speak. I am about done. I am just redoing some of the measurements to varify the data. Some of it is interesting indeed.

One thing to keep in mind with the QA1 conversion is that you should beef up the LCA. By using that conversion you put all of the weight and stresses of the front end on the two bolts holding shock to the LCA.

Brian

[68BNUT]

One thing to keep in mind with the QA1 conversion is that you should beef up the LCA. By using that conversion you put all of the weight and stresses of the front end on the two bolts holding shock to the LCA.

Brian

yeah im aware of that having to be done but thats some good info that im sure alot of people dont consider when doing that upgrade

[harshman]

Thanks guys. One more thing: by swapping upper and lower arms to tubular arms, I’m thinking the weight savings would be around 50 lbs overall off the front. The stock arms are pretty heavy and if I’m right, that would be worth the extra cash (I’m taklin’ Howe arms ~ $50 each not GW and the like for $600). Looks don’t do it for me as my car is so low that you couldn’t see the damn things anyway.

[JohnUlaszek]

"I’m thinking the weight savings would be around 50 lbs overall off the front."

A quality set of aftermarket arms i.e GW, Hotckhis, DSE are marginally lighter than stock first gen parts if at all. There are much better places to put your dollars if you are looking to remove weight.

[Joe_Rocket]

I didn't see it mentioned in this discussion, but I'm sure I read in the past on this site:

Keep in mind that most seek higher spring rates for handling. Coilovers or not, stock lower arms have been known to break around the ball joint area. So, even though the aftermarket lower A arms may not change geometry or handling characteristics in themselves you've got to consider the strength compared to a stock 35 year old A arm.

[68BNUT]

Yeah I was wondering if anybody else had heard of or is running Howe arms??

[ProTouring442]

While my experience isn't with F-bodies, I am running Global West upper and lower control arms on my 72 442.

The uppers for this application do change geometry, and allow the use of a taller spindle, so there isn't much I can offer on this.

As for the lowers, I can tell you that they don't feel lighter to me! Stronger, on the other hand? We've been joking that if I ever wreck the car, I could fold up the frame, but the lower arms should still be OK! I can also say that they seem to be built to much tighter specs as they slipped right into the frame where as the stock ones needed to be persuaded a bit.

As for the cost... well, cost here should be in all caps! But I have to wonder how much of this is due to things like product liability insurance. Let's face it, these guys sell street hardware and sooner or later they will get sued even if the failure has nothing to do with their product. Remember boys and girls, some 50% of the price of a ladder is product liability insurance!

Anyway, just my .02!

[Tom Welch]

I am of the opinion that some real world testing and not "adverteasing" or "advertested" suspension components is in order. So how's about it? Anybody want to stack up theirs against the others? I suggest that Dave Pozzi or someone with equivalent experience with first gen suspensions and mods for them head this up. PLEASE. We are in suspense.

[68BNUT]

So has anybody used the UCA's from howe racing??? wondering how good they are?

[trapin]

I was just passing by and had some spare change in my pocket. Thought I'd commit $.02 to the pot, if you don't mind.
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First off....some clarification is in order. The Guldstrand Modification improves 'negative camber gain' not 'caster'. 2 different things.

I went over this whole Guldstrand Mod, Camber, Caster, coilovers, UCA, DSE Arm, discussion with Kyle Tucker over a year ago. This is what the man told me. As far as the Guldstrand Modification is concerned....it is not needed with his control arms. Also...if you do the Guldstrand Modification with the stock arms on a street car, the only difference you will notice will be in your tire wear. It is mostly a modification done for competitive reasons. It is not noticed driving up to the corner for more diapers and baby formula. Jeff Trush has the DS&E arms on his car without the Guldstrand Modification and without a coilover setup and he tells me his car handles like it is on rails. So that is the direction I am going to take.

- Forget the Guldstrand Mod (not needed).
- Upper Control Arms from Global West
- Leave the stock lower arms with Hotchks Springs and Koni Shocks
- 2 parts tequila
- 3 parts tequila mix
- no salt...on the rocks.

This Public Service Message brought to you by.....

[TitoJones]

I'm going to have the respectfully disagree with Kyle on that one.

Having had a 68 Camaro with bone stock suspension, I did the following mods:
1- Added a complete set of PST poly bushings, and Baer 12" disc brakes, and 17" wheels (better than stock, by a bit.)
2- replaced all the PST junk with GW del-a-lum bushings and new mullings 605 box with new moog steering parts. (Wow, the car is fun to drive again)
3- Guldstrand mod. (Holy crap I have a race car!)
Each of these processes were done at different times over a 3 year period, and I must say, I felt the G mod more so than any other upgrade I did on that car. No abnormal or bad tire wear after 2 years on the street with it.
There is a reason Kyle uses his own geomerty to relocate his A arm in his coil over kit, and it isn't because the G mod is worthless. It is designed around his A arm shaft, and puts it in the optimal range it was designed for.
You can get excellent results with a GW A arm and the G mod, and almost silmilar results with the DSE arm/Coil over kit.

People on the bench still about this:
Do the damn mod. it takes less than 1 hour, and you WILL notice the difference. That is like saying that 17" road race slicks don't handle as well as my Bias Ply 14" red ovals that came on my car new in 68.

Tyler

[79T/Aman]

I'm with denny on this, when are people going to get it that solid bushings and or heavy front springs don't make your ride harsh i have 780# springs steel upper bushings, derlin lowers in my trans am and it rides better than a new ws6