I've got this idea...

[bri-rock]

I don't think it's necessarily all that original, but I haven't found any one else doing it yet. It's all about how I think that I can squeeze more mileage out of the LS1 in my 67 (which is a work in progress by the way).

I base this on the following knowns:
1. Higher compression ratios give greater efficiency (some books I have indicate roughly 3% for every 1.0 increase in the compression ratio.)
2. Forced induction further increases the compression ratio. i.e. 10psi of boost would theoretically increase the compression ratio. My LS1 is 10.5. With 10 psi, I calculate 10/14.7 + 1= 1.68
1.68 * 10.5 = effective CR of 17.6.
3. Running a lean A/F ratio is economical, but increases the risk of detonation (plus the formation of additional NOx)

If I combined all three of these, I think we can all be certain that my engine would destroy itself from detonation. The introduction of water/methanol injection would be my solution to this problem. I figure that water/meth connected as a fail-safe to cool the charge would allow me to side-step the risk of detonation. If there is a problem with the water/meth system, the AF ratio mapping in the program would revert to something safer and the boost somehow restricted. I am also figuring that this would cool the charge enough to reduce the formation of the NOx.

Okay, now everybody please poke some holes in this plan. I would really appreciate the feedback.

[Fuelie Fan]

Not new. Alcohol kits have (or should have) level sensors that inform the ecu when it is low. It's not a common feature, but some ecus can use this input to alter fueling. Also, lean cruise is not new either. Sorry!

[TonyL]

Yeppers. This is currently in use by many trying to not run an intercooler system on turboed cars. The principle is still the same though in a non pressurized car.

Even the guys running an HHO system in their car are using a modified MAP sensor controller to run lean on the road to squeeze out every last MPG.

[bri-rock]

Great! Thanks for the feedback.

[TonyL]

On a sort of related note. My coworker is running a HHO generator in his car and is getting 20 more mpg out of it than without it. I thought this was total bullcrap when I heard about it. (google it or search for HHO generator on Youtube.) This technology will work on ANY engine.

look at water4gas.com for details. It's worth a shot. And I can personally vouch for my guy's results.

[CarlC]

Already been done, and using your MP122 on an LS1 GTO.

Check out Hot Rod magazine a year or so back. They did a series of performance upgrades ending with the MP122 + meth. It had something like 600RWHP and drove like a kitten.

[bri-rock]

Tony, I personally continue to believe that HHO is too good to be true. Now, I don't believe everything that I read in Wikiopedia, but please note the excert below from there in regards to HHO.

[edit] Automotive

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to increase automotive engine efficiency. See water-fuelled car
Many of these claims, prima facie, violate the Law of conservation of energy. See Conservation of energy and Electrolysis of water:Efficiency. To date, all of these claims have been fraudulent.


If it takes a certain amount of energy to break the bonds between oxygen and hydrogen, you can't get more energy back when they combust and make water again.

Even that website water4gas.com has "scam" written all over it. Lots of pseudo-science and flashy pictures.

[TonyL]

That's what I thought too. Understand that HHO isnt what the car is running on. It's simply drawing what little HHO is produced into the combustion cycle. HHO is both burnable and an oxidizer. It causes the gasoline that is used in your engine to burn more completely, thus giving you more efficiency. For all the science and back and forth on it, I'll tell you this. My man who's actually done this mod to his car, has spent 60 bucks on parts only. No one scammed him out of anything.

He installed it in his corolla. He used to get 340 miles on a tank of gas. As of right now, today, He has burned 1/4 of a tank of gas and gone 130 miles. No changes in driving habit or where he has gone. this is his commuter car to and from work only. at thjs point, he'll go over 500 miles on this tank of gas. That's a verifiable improvement, that i've seen with my own two eyes. As hard as it is to believe it. (and Im a skeptic. really.) I have to say that this does, in fact seem to work. Testing is still in progress.

I've been insanely critical of this. And have not mentioned it here until I had seen it for myself.

[TonyL]

here's a youtube video of my guy's setup.
He's attempting to put together a little free tutorial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk4gIioSMmk

[cantvalve16]

I have been researching the whole HHO thing myself. Pretty close to trying it out myself on my wife's Corolla, then on my truck.

[wills55]

if there is a place where I can get instructions on how to set up a system then Ill try it out on my DD Toyota Avalon, I already have a bio-diesel setup on the back portch for the truck and its helping ALOT with price of diesel. not bad making 1gal of bio-diesel for approx $0.70. hell, its awesome when diesel is $5.00/gal here in Miami!

[TonyL]

The instructions are all over the web. There's a ton of tutorials on youtube. and there's the formentioned water4gas site.

Note that the site does use the word "scam" what is being referred to is the fact that most people are selling complete systems for thousands of dollars when you can build it for 30 or 40 bucks in parts from radio shack and home depot. That's the "scam" they are poking fun at.

[bri-rock]

Tony, you've peaked my interest. I decided to conduct an experiment. Today, I made one of these things using 4" ABS pipe, 1/2" stainless allthread, etc. I just finished hooking it up to my F-150 which is my daily driver. I have nearly a full tank of gas. Give it a week and I'll let you know what happened.

I think I may have to add some more baking soda as the gas production of the unit doesn't seem to be very high to me (about one bubble per second). Any suggestions?

[TonyL]

My guy is using the stainless lightswitch plates in his. He used some baking soda and some PH reducer for aquariums in his water.

[jerome]

using electricity creates mechanical drag at the alternator...are you telling me that you extract more energy from the water by creating hydrogen and and oxygen (and then burning it) than the mechanical energy required to generate the electricity?

mechanical--->electrical--->chemical--->mechanical

that cycle gains energy? that just makes no sense to me.

Now a solar panel as a hood creating electricity to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen would help...but I don't think it creates nearly enough H & O to help mileage a noticeable amount.

Jerome

[HsvToolFool]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

Automotive fuel enhancement systems inject either a hydrogen-rich mixture, or pure hydrogen into the intake manifold of the engine. In some cases, this is combined with air/fuel ratio, and timing modifications. A small amount of hydrogen added to the intake air-fuel charge permits the engine to operate with leaner air-to-fuel mixture than otherwise possible. As the air/fuel mix approaches 30:1 the temperature of combustion substantially decreases effectively mitigating NOx production.

Under idle conditions power is only required for extraneous components other than the drive train, therefore fuel consumption can be minimized. A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption at idle was reported by numerically analyzing the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine.

Under most loads near stoichiometric air/fuel mixtures are still required for normal acceleration, although under idle conditions, reduced loads and moderate acceleration hydrogen addition in combination with lean burn engine conditions can guarantee a regular running of the engine with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption.

Increases in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen. This is specifically with regard to use of a hydrogen reformer. Overall computational analysis has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a substantial performance decrease but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption.

[TonyL]

using electricity creates mechanical drag at the alternator...are you telling me that you extract more energy from the water by creating hydrogen and and oxygen (and then burning it) than the mechanical energy required to generate the electricity?

mechanical--->electrical--->chemical--->mechanical

that cycle gains energy? that just makes no sense to me.

Now a solar panel as a hood creating electricity to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen would help...but I don't think it creates nearly enough H & O to help mileage a noticeable amount.

Jerome

Actually, there's no noticable drag on the alternator running this setup. Certainly none more than running a fan or stereo in the car.
It's not an arc welder in that jar. It takes very little electricity to cause this type of reaction. Can you increase the reaction to get a more violent and faster extraction of hydrogen? Im sure you could. The point is, this system is *so* dialed back, turned so far down, that it makes just enough to improve the mileage. Im not saying I understand the science. Just the results. Dude is getting better milage now. Signifigantly so. Check it yourself. Materials cost around 40 dollars, if that.

[bri-rock]

Tony, if I'm reading that wiki insert correctly, I will only realize the fuel savings if I modify my air/fuel ratio. So, supposedly the hydrogen offers some sort of anti-detonation effect when running lean? or is it more of a catalyst?

Regarding your buddy: did he modify his A/F ratio?

Quick snapshot on my fuel mileage with 1/2 a tank of gas consumed since the install of the unit: so far my gas mileage is exactly the same.

I wonder how many cubic inches/min of hydrogen is necessary to actually have an impact.

[TonyL]

he does use a box that is spliced into his map sensor.

It's in his youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhz11JW3G4

He's in the middle of adding two more "jars" to his setup. We'll keep you posted. he's supposed to have it done this weekend.

(note. Mike's deaf. Hence his way of speaking.)

[streetk14]

Back to the Magnacharger and high-compression setup........that's very similar to what I have in my 67 Camaro. LS1 short block with COMP XER cam, ported LQ9 heads, and 10 psi from 122 magnacharger. I lowered the compression to about 9.75:1 to be safe, but I will probably bring it up if I ever get some new heads. I will also probably do methanol injection eventually also.

As far as good gas mileage, I'm doubt it's improved since I added the blower, but it burns off the tires from a 50 mph roll now in 2nd gear. I'll have to see what it gets on the freeway next time I take it somewhere out of town. I'd like to think it will get 25 mpg on the freeway with the motor chugging below 2000 rpm at around 80 mph.

Andy