Coming Soon: 4L65RR Manumatic System

[Steve Chryssos]

Lots to digest here.
The 1-2 gear spread on a 4L60E (and 700R4) is perfect with a 3.42. But a 3.42 can be a little low (numerically) for overdrive and a 25.5" tire. Cam and converter selection becomes critical to avoid lugging in overdrive. fuel injection or a finely tuned carburetor helps as well.

The 200 has a great 1-2 split, but the .67 overdrive will exaggerate the lugging issue. I personally prefer the 200 over the 700, but consider swapping rear gears down the line if lugging (at around 45-60 mph is a problem. Swapping gears after finishing a project is normal.



Your tire selection and intended usage will help cushion your transmission choice. 550Ft-Lb torque capacity on the street with NT555's is different than 550 Ft-Lbs on slicks at the drags every weekend. Bowler rates their transmissions for worst case scenario.

A stock but fresh 4L80E with shift kit can handle 550Ft-Lbs of torque out of the box, If you find a good core at the right price, an '80 can actually serve as a budget solution. '80's, like TH400's, seem to take a little longer to complete shifts. And the engine braking feature is not yet available. Hence the high dollar 4L65RR. Quick, reliable, and with engine braking.

A $1000 700R4 will lack the hard parts necessary to handle 600Ft-Lbs. In fact, it will probably fail at 250 Ft-Lbs. Honest torque capacity costs money.

Brain overload. I'll re-read this tomorrow to see if I missed anything.
Thanks for looking

[Turbo67camaro]

More info:

Car will be fuel injected, and use a tire diameter of about 27.3 to 28 inches (18"s w/ 40 or 45 aspect).

I doubt I'll have a overdrive lugging problem with fuel injection and the mild turbo profile Isky cam.

Cam profile (Isky Turbo-Cycle 201-TA):

Cam lift .290 (intake) .267 (exhaust)
Valve lift .435 (intake) .400 (exhaust)
Duration 262 (intake) 250 (exhaust)
050 Dur. 208 (intake) 194 (exhaust)
Lobe Center 114 (intake) 112.5 (exhaust)

...not taking into account I'm using 1.6 roller rockers. Isky describes it as a low end torque, economy turbo profile cam.

Decisions, decisions...

Thanks for the feedback.

Mike

[Steve Chryssos]

That's a great combination. You have your act together. I would probably not worry too much about gear splits. Make reliability and budget higher priorities. Some examples of 4L65RR usage (3.06:1, 1.63:1, 1:1, .7:1, 3.73, 25.5" dia rear tire, 6500 rpm redline):
-On Road Atlanta, I only used 2nd and 3rd gear around the entire track.
-At the drags, I frequently launch in 1st gear, then quickly tap up to 2nd gear to reduce wheel spin, then run thru the light at the top of 3rd gear.
-On the street, I only use overdrive at regular highway speeds.

I think that a recap to yor original question might be as follows.
-There is no magic wand to make a true 550 Ft-Lb rated transmission on the cheap. 200, 700, '60, or '80, that torque capacity costs money.
-A good converter can make all the difference between the soggy performance that automatics are famous for, and the efficient performance expected from a pro-touring automatic.
-If you go electronic, you will need a computer. If you go that route, you will need to zero out the expense against greater tuning capability and the added reliability that follows. Used computers exist. Their function can almost always be verified, but beware of used harnesses.
-If you go electronic, the paddle shifter can be added at a later time.
-If you go Compushift, the on board display can be added at a later time.

Good post.

[1969CamaroRS]

How much is the on-board display (LCD tuner)?

[Steve Chryssos]

On its own the display is priced at $235. It allows you to adjust transmission parameters such as line pressure, shift timing, lock up control, mode selection, and vehicle specs. It also uses the built in g-meter to display some cool data such as simulated rear wheel horsepower and positive/negative acceleration. There is a data logger, stop watch and a dozen different display types, one of which displays gear selection in automatic and paddle shifter mode. In auto mode it shows, 1, 2, 3, 4. In paddle shift mode, it shows S1, S2, S3, S4. That's a lot of power for $235. And you never have to plug in a laptop. Which means you never have a laptop sliding across the passenger seat and you never have to take your eyes off the road.

Without the display, tuning (line pressure and shift timing) is accomplished by way of screws on the side of the TCU. With or without the display, we provide a calibration on every TCU before it ships.

[neki67]

*****, I wanna upgrade . . . .

[1969CamaroRS]

Sounds like a great system.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks. Works great and lots of fun. We're proud of how far things have come.

*****, I wanna upgrade . . . .

With all of the current systems at more than $1000, you can probably sell your existing TCI computer for close to retail--probably around $600. But you need to carefully cut and label the old harness out carefully since replacement harnesses are not available. Let me know if I can help.

[GetMore]

I've got a couple questions:

How do you switch between manual and automatic modes?
Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS)


Oh, and can I trade in my unused 700-R4 and converter? ;)

[Turbo67camaro]

I've decided to go with a 4L80E solution with computer control.

I'll make up some up the weight gain with an aluminum drive shaft.

The first gear won't be optimum for out of the hole performance w/ 3.42 rear, but since my motor is cammed for low end torque and will use a turbo, it won't be a slouch either. With a 6000 rpm redline, 3rd gear should go to 145 mph, so I can finish the 1/4 before needing 4th.

Added bonus: the 2.48 1st might keep my wife from snapping the rear end !

For autocross and road racing, the 2.48 1st gear with 3.42 rear may prove a useful combination. If I went with a 4L60E, the 3.06 1st gear w/ 3.42 rear may be too wide to be useful, especially with a turbo motor that makes power at a lower RPM.

For highway overdrive, the wider .75 OD 4th should pair well with my 3.42 rear. With an EFI motor cammed for low RPM torque, I may sacrifice gas mileage slightly and unnecessarily compared to the .70 or .67 ratio of other trannys, but I'll get a little insurance against lugging. I should be able to plod along well at legal speed even up moderate hills. 65mph should be 1994 rpm in 4th. Maybe I'll get lucky and the RPMs will be in the sweet spot for MPG.

If money were no object, I'd get upgraded gears in the 4L80E (2.75 1st, 1.57 2nd), but I'll probably justify that money elsewhere.

Now, to figure out what torque converter and stall speed, and where to get that 4L80E.

In short, for about the same price as a really well built 700R4 or 2004R, I can get into a electronic solution. However, I get more control, more reliability, more consistency and safety at the drags, and ability to upgrade to a paddle shifter. Small price to pay for a little weight gain.

Picking a transmission has been the most difficult decision on building this car by far.

Steve, PM sent to find out what model that PCS computer is so I can research it.

Thanks for the help,

Mike

[neki67]

With all of the current systems at more than $1000, you can probably sell your existing TCI computer for close to retail--probably around $600. But you need to carefully cut and label the old harness out carefully since replacement harnesses are not available. Let me know if I can help.

Thanks Steve but unfortunately there isn't a high demand for these controllers around here (the Netherlands) so I probably have to buy myself one of these Asus EEE's and mount that to the inside of my glove box . . . . .

Cheers,
René

[Steve Chryssos]

I've got a couple questions:

How do you switch between manual and automatic modes?
Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS)

With Compushift, you just tap a paddle and paddle shift mode is enabled. It will disable anytime you move the mechanical lever (floor/column shifter) or kill the ignition. ....Same concept as new cars such as Porsche Tiptronic, etc. PCS and others use a separate toggle switch to enable disable paddle shift mode. Either way works fine.

Do you need (or should you have) a shifter with 7 positions, or just 4 (or 5)? (PRN4321 vs PRNDS)

Stock shift pattern works. You really only need PRND or PRND3, but a stock three speed gate or four speed gate works. I've tried them all. With the 3 speed gate, you have overdrive(fourth), third, and second. One of our cars has a shifter out of a late model manumatic Jeep that only offers PRND+/-. All of your performance driving is done by way of the paddles so the shift gate doesn't matter. Simple is better. You no longer need a "reverse lock out....ratchet action...lift up...push down...slap your knee twice" shifter. For a Camaro, the stock "staple" aka horseshoe shifter is perfect. While not mandatory, add a 4 speed gate kit from Shiftworks and your done.

Oh, and can I trade in my unused 700-R4 and converter? ;)

Nuh uh.

[Steve Chryssos]

I've decided to go with a 4L80E solution with computer control.
Steve, PM sent to find out what model that PCS computer is so I can research it.
Thanks for the help,
Mike

Some of these expectations will change after some installation and drive time. I'll post my experiences. Let me know down the line if you agree or disagree.

I'll make up some up the weight gain with an aluminum drive shaft.

The weight stigma is a bit overblown. We're talking about 40 lbs located at bottom middle of the car. Compared with the big gains in reliability, the weight difference is easily negated.

The first gear won't be optimum for out of the hole performance w/ 3.42 rear, but since my motor is cammed for low end torque and will use a turbo, it won't be a slouch either. With a 6000 rpm redline, 3rd gear should go to 145 mph, so I can finish the 1/4 before needing 4th.

Added bonus: the 2.48 1st might keep my wife from snapping the rear end !

You'll probably be traction limited anyway. We all are. But if that's the case, you won't snap parts.

For autocross and road racing, the 2.48 1st gear with 3.42 rear may prove a useful combination. If I went with a 4L60E, the 3.06 1st gear w/ 3.42 rear may be too wide to be useful, especially with a turbo motor that makes power at a lower RPM.

Yeah, I don't make full autocross runs in 1st gear (3.06 x 3.70). Slows the car up too much. You might get away with it. Most courses, I hit the beams in 1st, then run the rest of the course in 2nd. 3.42 gears don't work very well for autocross, so plan on airing the rear tires up.

For highway overdrive, the wider .75 OD 4th should pair well with my 3.42 rear. With an EFI motor cammed for low RPM torque, I may sacrifice gas mileage slightly and unnecessarily compared to the .70 or .67 ratio of other trannys, but I'll get a little insurance against lugging. I should be able to plod along well at legal speed even up moderate hills. 65mph should be 1994 rpm in 4th. Maybe I'll get lucky and the RPMs will be in the sweet spot for MPG.

You're right. Too many people gear their cars for excessively low cruise rpm. Modern OE transmissions are geared for one thing only: To satisfy CAFE standardized testing. If you're not careful, you'll be driving down the road at idle or close to it. We care about gas mileage also, but the pendulum between performance and economy sits closer to the middle. Give up 200-300 rpm to get the engine right at the bottom of the powerband.

If money were no object, I'd get upgraded gears in the 4L80E (2.75 1st, 1.57 2nd), but I'll probably justify that money elsewhere.

That would be slick, but in a perfect world, I would keep the 2.48 if possible and switch to 3.70 final. Remember that we have a semi viscous coupling and computer control, so gear splits are not as critical as with a manual trans. We compensate by electronically controlling shift time. Unlike a clutch, the converter absorbs most of the shock between gears. Lock up and shift time are configurable. That's not to belittle the importance of effective gear splits with respect to engine powerband--just telling you not to worry about huge, between gear rpm spikes and dips.

Now, to figure out what torque converter and stall speed, and where to get that 4L80E.
In short, for about the same price as a really well built 700R4 or 2004R, I can get into a electronic solution. However, I get more control, more reliability, more consistency and safety at the drags, and ability to upgrade to a paddle shifter. Small price to pay for a little weight gain.
Picking a transmission has been the most difficult decision on building this car by far.

You're right there as far as understanding this stuff.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks for all the great questions.

[1969CamaroRS]

I am not sure if you mentioned this in this thread or not but what is the typical pricing on your Muscle drive torque converters?

I am trying to figure out pricing so I can budget for building my own 4L80E and adding in your TCU + Paddle shifter + Torque converter.


Thanks!

[Steve Chryssos]

Based on the engine combination in your sig, your converter price is $797.
Thank you for your interest
/Steve

[TitoJones]

Alright boys and girls, I'm here to say something I never thought possible;

The Twist Machine RR4L65 is like having a manual when you want one, and an auto when you don't.

I went up to NY last week for some R&R and got to drive first hand the 68 Camaro that is the R&D car for Twist.
The trans is epic. it shifts very crisp (not firm or harsh) and engine brakes like a manual does. I love everything about it and I'm a die hard T-56 six speed guy by nature. I know I will be wishing I had one of these the first time I get stuck in traffic again with my six speed. Can't say enough positive things about the way this thing feels. It is so hard to describe, you just need to go for a spin in one.

Great work by Twist Machine. They are WAY ahead of the game in the automatic world. I just wish the rest of us would catch up to your advancements.

Tyler

[70 Chevelle]

Is it possible to have the system ordered with a one piece case 4l60e

[MarkB]

Tyler glad to hear that you got to take a ride in Steve's Camaro, and that you are pleased with the results. We are slowly getting the attention of many manual transmission lovers. We are constantly improving the automatics and will continue to stay ahead of the game by offering packages like the new 4L60RR. We have more cool items heading your way!

Tony to answer your question, yes we can build the 4L60E as a removeable bell style or a non-removeable bell. Just let Steve or us know and we can get you taken care of.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Tyler.