Coming Soon: 4L65RR Manumatic System

[meenaggie]

Steve, we are all waiting for a post Road Atlanta update . . . how did the test drive go?

[Steve Chryssos]

TOTALLY AWESOME! Trans temps held steady with the Redline Oil D4 at 220 even with lap after lap of high rev high speed runs. The engine braking feature is insane. Shift time is very quick despite not being harsh. I'm not quite sure how Bowler pulls that off, but they do. I always assumed that very quick shifts automatically meant harsh shifts. The RR just goes OOMPH! and it's in the next gear.

On Road Atlanta I had the Compushift set to lock up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th o you have direct drive coupling between engine and trans. I used 2nd and 3rd gear almost exclusively, so I never missed having the additional gears of a manual trans. Road Atlanta is a fast, but very hilly course. So just picture that most of the track can be run in 3rd gear at 1:1 with my 3.70 rear gears. All of the steep inclines occur just after tight turns and heavy braking. So finish your braking in a straight line in 3rd gear, tap down to second, apex, and put the power back on knowing that the car is 100% in 2nd gear for sure. Nail it, climb the hill tap up to 3rd at redline and haul ass back up to redline. Repeat.
On the street, I kept the shifter in 3rd gear. Lock up occurs at 48mph. Again, I don't know what sinister magic Bowler applies to their calibration, but lock up feels like a whole extra gear. And it stays locked up until vehicle speed drops below 28mph. So the car just chugs along in direct drive. Feels sounds and performs just like a manual until you slow down below 28 mph. Then you have all of the smoothness of a Cadillac. No clutch pedal; no jerking. I will drive it like this everywhere. 4th gear will only be used for highway cruising economy.

I am blown away. The MuscleDrive converter was a big step forward. But going back into the trans and optimizing the hard calibration for this exact combination completed the scene. WE DID IT! RR packages will ship with an advanced calibration that can only be supplied when all of the pieces are used together. Trans-Converter-Compushift-Shrifter.

Thanks for looking
/Steve

[Damn True]

Steve,

Have you given any thought to capturing fuel economy metrics for a car with a basic slushbox vs. a finely calibrated manumatic? It might provide some interesting and enlightening debunking of the "automatics get worse mileage" paradigm.

[derekf]

Steve,

Have you given any thought to capturing fuel economy metrics for a car with a basic slushbox vs. a finely calibrated manumatic? It might provide some interesting and enlightening debunking of the "automatics get worse mileage" paradigm.

Don't know that in the long run there can be any positive difference -- even if the torque convertor did a 100% lock up, if the transmissions have equivalent gearing you're comparing a direct drive versus a direct drive that's having to run a hydraulic pump.

Or perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the differences are miniscule, or the gearing doesn't have to be the same with the torque multiplication of the convertor. I'd like to be.

[Damn True]

Well I'm not assuming the difference would be eliminated. There would have to be more parasitic loss, but perhaps the difference between the two might be mitigated to some degree.

[Steve Chryssos]

It's not impossible to test. Compare a 700R4 to a 4L60E. Maybe we can talk Tommy Parker into testing his 700R4 and then making the swap. No way will I ever put a 700R4 back in my car after driving the 4L65RR.

That would be sacrilege. Anyway, I expect the biggest difference would come from comparing a typical street/strip torque converter to my MuscleDrive product. ...And Tommy already has one of my converters ahead of his 700R4. So the test might come up nil. He bought serial number one production converter from us. Thanks Tommy, for having faith in us. He picked up something like 20 or 30 rear wheel from just the trans rebuild and converter.

Oh and remember not to confuse parasitic loss with coupling efficiency.

[Damn True]

Oh and remember not to confuse parasitic loss with coupling efficiency.

Hadn't even thought of that actually. I'm sure there's a bunch of both.

Just thinkin out loud, but I can't help but think that there might be some folks for whom there is resistance to your solution because it's an auto and therefore precieved to be less efficient.

[Steve Chryssos]

.....Just thinkin out loud, but I can't help but think that there might be some folks for whom there is resistance to you solution because it's an auto and therefore precieved to be less efficient.

Of course there is. That's why we keep driving the wheels off our cars. They run hard, they don't break. We have all kinds of fun. As long as the cars are fast and consistent and fun, percentage loss is just a coupla words. I never try to tell people that our products are better than manuals or that our manumatics work exactly the same as a manual. I only guarantee people the best automatic transmission experience of their lives. I can do that confidently.

[Damn True]

Understood. I'm just saying that one potential roadblock for some folks might be the point of slushbox efficiency. If you could clearly show that your config mitigates the inefficiencies of automatics you could potentially clear that hurdle with some folks.

I myself have a roadblock to your solution and that is the preconceived notion that a manual will be more "fun". Awfully tough to quantify I know. One of these days I need to get back there and drive one of those things. I have a feeling I'm wrong.

[Steve Chryssos]

Very tough. The manual box offers visceral excitement of yanking back and forth on a stick as well as direct drive coupling across the rev range. We've made huge progress with coupling efficiency and shift time, but we replace that visceral sensation with a simple, unemotional "tap". People need to realize that we are freeing them up to concentrate on that thing in front of the car called: the road. Gas, Brake, Steering. The paddle shifter frees you up to concentrate on your driving line. And since most of us are amateurs--Learning car control is paramount. There is no fear of missing a gear or worse--a catastrophic 5th to 1st accidental downshift. No chance of catastrophic over-revs. So that occasional hesitation during gear changes is gone (The one that no-one will admit to). Shift times are faster and there is ZERO power interrupt. When its time to turn your brain off (i.e. traffic), there is always automatic mode. Try that with your stick. During lock up, the Bowler 4L65RR chugs just like a manual. Below lock up (currently 28mph on my carbureted small block) the system offers silky smooth power delivery like a Cadillac. We can make it chug at 15mph, but have realized that it is better to dial it out because we can.

There are tons of benefits, but yanking back and forth on that stick is a powerful temptress--even as we approach the coupling efficiency of a fully mechanical trans and shave shift time.

[Greg from Aus]

Hi Steve is there any plans to go down this path with a 4L80E set up for big HP engines around 1000hp

Thanks
Greg

[Steve Chryssos]

There will be 4L80RR packages, but not until more testing is done. And I strongly doubt that the RR mods will be applied to super high powered applications. Just a wild guess, but the limit may be more like 700 FtLbs of torque. Sprag failure is the primary concern with the engine braking mod. 4L65E development, on the other hand, has already benefited from five years and thousands of miles in Bowler house and air ride cars. The 80RR's have a lot of catching up to do. We're gonna test one in our Hoover project car, aka the red car, aka the car formerly known as the red car. We call it Hoover now, because it sucks up so much cash in the form of do-overs. If the 4L80RR breaks in that car, it will just be another do-over. So Hoover is the perfect test car.

Bowler still makes tough 4L80E transmissions that handle that kind of big power (800 FtLbs or more), just not with the RR mods at this time.

[amx2334]

I am in the process of going from 4spd to auto with plans to use your paddle shifter.
How long did it take to overcome the urge to reach for the shifter with your right hand and push the clutch with left leg? I have been doing this for 20+ years and it's kinda habitual.I get the feeling I'm going to be reaching out into thin air and stomping the floorboard.
Are the GM transmissions the only ones in the pipeline?

[Steve Chryssos]

Those little paddles are so intuitive. They're just right there. Your fingers fall back and TAP! Actually the biggest problem we have is convincing people not to bitch-slap the paddles. Vinnie A was the worst offender. He used to take his whole hand off the wheel and whack the paddle. A light touch and controlled squeeze is the only way to get the job done. The RF device needs adequate signal burst to work, so if you quickly slap the paddle the receiver does not get enough signal. You can practice working the paddle shifter with the engine off and the key on. Tap and listen for the clicks. Practice that a few times and you'll never look back. I use the sides of my fingers now instead of the tips.

I like to take things slow in order to guarantee your satisfaction. So I will only be selling the the RR systems for GM transmissions at this time. We'll get to the Ford stuff eventually. The Ford stuff might even be easier since overdrive is applied electrically. I really want to try a Ford 5R55 five speed behind my LS1 build. But that's just a dream at this stage. We'll see.
/Steve

[Damn True]

Very tough. The manual box offers visceral excitement of yanking back and forth on a stick as well as direct drive coupling across the rev range. We've made huge progress with coupling efficiency and shift time, but we replace that visceral sensation with a simple, unemotional "tap". People need to realize that we are freeing them up to concentrate on that thing in front of the car called: the road. Gas, Brake, Steering. The paddle shifter frees you up to concentrate on your driving line. And since most of us are amateurs--Learning car control is paramount. There is no fear of missing a gear or worse--a catastrophic 5th to 1st accidental downshift. No chance of catastrophic over-revs. So that occasional hesitation during gear changes is gone (The one that no-one will admit to). Shift times are faster and there is ZERO power interrupt. When its time to turn your brain off (i.e. traffic), there is always automatic mode. Try that with your stick. During lock up, the Bowler 4L65RR chugs just like a manual. Below lock up (currently 28mph on my carbureted small block) the system offers silky smooth power delivery like a Cadillac. We can make it chug at 15mph, but have realized that it is better to dial it out because we can.

There are tons of benefits, but yanking back and forth on that stick is a powerful temptress--even as we approach the coupling efficiency of a fully mechanical trans and shave shift time.

I'm tellin ya, I am really starting to warm up to the idea. It's just such a huge paradigm shift. I really gotta get behind the wheel of one.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm tellin ya, I am really starting to warm up to the idea. It's just such a huge paradigm shift. I really gotta get behind the wheel of one.

Hop a plane. I'll let you get behind the wheel of two or three. In the meantime, I will borrow Vin's camera mount and shoot some in car video. You can compare it to older videos and instantly see the improvements made by the converter and new transmission.

[amx2334]

I can see it now. Wife catches me late at night in the garage going vroom vroom. Honestly dear I was practicing.

[1969CamaroRS]

You have me really excited about trying a automatic with paddle shifters, been on the fence between sticking with automatic (have a 700R4 now) and switching to a 5/6 speed manual.

A nicely built automatic with paddle shifters sounds like the best of both worlds!

Approximately what would the 4L80E packages run, say for 800ft/lbs? I'm guess my motor puts out about 600ft/lbs but I want to be able to run slicks and abuse it at the track and not have to worry about breaking stuff.


Thanks!

[rjsjea]

When is the package pricing on the 4l65RR gonna be out??

[Steve Chryssos]

Monday. We're just working out the details on the advanced TCU calibrations. It takes quite a bit more time to calibrate the TCU's as compared to the standard calibrations. I mean like hours vs minutes. We're trying to see if we can automate the process.