Should I ditch the subframe?

[Texas Bob]

So the 69 Camaro that I'm acquiring will arrive with a TCI standard 1st gen Camaro subframe with Wilwood brakes. After reading up on everyone's opinion on proper subframes for the por touring enthusiasts I wonder if I would be better off taking it out and selling it and then putting those funds towards an AME subframe. The car is ready for paint so this would be the time to switch.

Realisticly I will maybe see a track or two in it's life with me. One could hope for more, but I'm trying to be realistic. Concensus seems to be that this is s show piece and not purposely built for handling. For romping around will I notice a difference? Should I just be content with what I have? Come resale time will this effect value? If I keep it I almost feel like I'll be labeled and when i list my cars features I'll have to turn my head, cover my mouth, and while coughing mutter ..."and a TCI subframe."

[ho428]

Nothing wrong with a factory subframe. If it's in decent shape just blast it, weld the seams and grind it smooth if it's a look you're going for.
If you're going to cut it apart and modify it for coil overs, rack and pinion etc... sell it and get aftermarket already set up for that. The original part will be gone once modified.

PT seems to be up to interpretation. No matter how much you do, someone will do more. I gave up on keeping up with the Jones years ago.

[Texas Bob]

The factory subframe is gone. The TCI (Total Cost Involved) is an aftermarket subframe. It just seems to be more for bling then for zing.

[Damn True]

In that case, yes, you should ditch it. You'd be better off with a factory sub.

[Texas Bob]

Well said and understood my friend.

[ho428]

Gone as in rusted and banged up? First post says it will arrive with a standard First Gen Subframe that you're thinking about selling.
The you say it's gone.

I can't follow your thread very well.

[CamaroLance]

I saw that car you bought. Looks pretty good. If you're not going to be racing the car, I don't know why you'd bother changing front ends? That is unless you have alot more money than I do! Screw what anybody else says about your car. It's a 69 camaro and it's going to be badass whatever clip it has!

[Texas Bob]

Gone as in rusted and banged up? First post says it will arrive with a standard First Gen Subframe that you're thinking about selling.
The you say it's gone.

I can't follow your thread very well.

Ah, I see where I made the error, my bad. Fixing.

[68Formula]

I saw that car you bought. Looks pretty good. If you're not going to be racing the car, I don't know why you'd bother changing front ends? That is unless you have alot more money than I do! Screw what anybody else says about your car. It's a 69 camaro and it's going to be badass whatever clip it has!

Because he still wants good handling. And in terms of handling, any car with bad suspension geometry is not going to be badass. (Might look badass, but won't be badass.)

I'm sure he can find someone to sell that streetrod clip to for some decent coin and then clean up a stock subframe, then add better spindles/arms to make a reasonable cost package (maybe even end up with extra cash in his pocket).

[CamaroLance]

Yeah. God forbid his car handling anything like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpUy9...eature=related

That would be pretty embarrassing.

[68Formula]

Wow, surprise that it did better. They put a fresh, stiff, front suspension, 4-link rear suspension, low profile super wide competition tires and compared it against a worn out stock suspension with old balloon skinnies.

What did the tester say before the suspension guy corrected said "TCI doesn't sell tires." "The rims and tires made a huge difference."

I should've known to stop watching as soon as the title "fast and furious" came up.

[silver69camaro]

Mike you bring up a good point.

To start, I don't know anything about TCI's subframe so I wont comment on it.

Simply watching a video or reading a magazine that states the car turned whatever-g on the skid pad and when a billion MPH on the slalom doesn't mean anything. Sure, the subframe probably had decent camber gain and a balanced ARB & spring combo, but we all know the big results are from the tires.

Obviously that's a big generalization and in no way am I downplaying proper geometry and overall vehicle balance, but the other gains in a well designed subframe, whoever's it may be, is in how it feels. Is it predictable? Does it feel queasy coming out of a turn and onto the throttle? Can you feel the road without feeling every pebble? Or does it plow through a corner with no warning?

IMO, this is what seperates the men from the boys. In the past we've had both pro test drivers of Art's '60 Vette and '55 Chev tell us the feel of the cars was increadible, and that's a huge compliment. That's real validation from people who really know what a car should feel like. This isn't to say we're the only "man" in the field...there are others.

Again, this is not saying TCI's subframe doesn't "feel" good. I don't know anything about it or any other subframe available today. I just want to make sure people understand that just because X subframe matches the skidpad and slalom numbers of Y's subframe, they're equal in performance. There are qualitative aspects as well that should not be ignored.

[CamaroLance]

Well Matt, I totally agree with you on all you said.

My problem is, that everybody knocks all these vendors subframes when they know absolutely nothing about them. Hell for all they know, it may be just as good as the ame or dse(doubtful). I for one would absolutely love to see the big 10 subframe mfg's bring their product to a track day and have a half dozen experienced drivers put them to the test and rate them. We know that will never happen though. I just wish people wouldn't dog other products JUST because they were built by a street rod company, or just because ole joe blow engineer buddy says that it can't be good for what reason he doesn't know. The only test is the seat of the pants test, if it feels good do it. If it handles the way you want, buy it. My BMW handles great, but I'm sure there's alotta people out there that think they're crap. To each their own, why make people feel like a dumbass for having certain parts on their car that you don't like. Ok, I'm done. hehe...

[cheapthrillz]

Well Matt, I totally agree with you on all you said.

My problem is, that everybody knocks all these vendors subframes when they know absolutely nothing about them. Hell for all they know, it may be just as good as the ame or dse(doubtful). I for one would absolutely love to see the big 10 subframe mfg's bring their product to a track day and have a half dozen experienced drivers put them to the test and rate them. We know that will never happen though. I just wish people wouldn't dog other products JUST because they were built by a street rod company, or just because ole joe blow engineer buddy says that it can't be good for what reason he doesn't know. The only test is the seat of the pants test, if it feels good do it. If it handles the way you want, buy it. My BMW handles great, but I'm sure there's alotta people out there that think they're crap. To each their own, why make people feel like a dumbass for having certain parts on their car that you don't like. Ok, I'm done. hehe...

I agree completely...

If you are building a racecar, then you better spend some time researching and testing your suspension.

If you are building a streetcar, then you better spend some time driving the car and figure out what you don't like about it. From there, you can decide on the alternative solutions or upgrades.

My advice would just be to drive the piss out of it and if it is slopply and non responsive in the turns, then look for some other subframes. You never know... that sub might be the perfect fit and feel for the way you drive?

[Damn True]

These types of threads come up about once or twice a year. Someone floats the idea of some new or not so new subframe from one of the "street-rod" centric builders. Then, those in the know point out fundamental flaws in the design, or in the lack of substantive information regarding the geometry or componentry contained therein. This is quickly followed by someone who either has said subframe and wants validation or is somehow connected to the manufacturer and is trying to defend their buddy/boss.

An example:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=20668
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...me+shear+mount

There are many, many others.

So, understand that as a community we are predisposed to what is known to work (modified factory subs, 21st century, AME, DSE) and to those manufacturers who back their performance claims with real data as opposed to cute videos on youtube and marketing splatter. In addition we are far more likely to support a manufacturer like AME, Lat-D or ATS who will not only tell a customer and the world via a board like this why, in substantive terms, one should buy their product, but they are just as quick to tell people when their product is not appropriate to a given application.

Don't take it personally.

[CamaroLance]

Well Mr. Damn True, I'm going to take this very personally!!! My daddy just so happens to be the president of TCI. Their stuff rocks the free world!










Ok Ok.... I'm kiiiidding!

[6'9"Witha69]

Well said True. I am glad you brought in a thread about the single shear mounting and the overall design of many frames. This may be a good geometry frame with the best handling imaginable, but I don't want to be around when stuff starts breaking under stress.

[Gandalf]

Hey Bob. Now to be fair - I am no suspension expert. My goals for my 69 Camaro's are PT looks and street performance only. I'd like to see if I can run the TCI front end in order to run some wider wheels/tires.

I watched that Yellow Nova run HARD all day long at the recent OC GoodGuys. I was very impressed with how that car handled. For all the bad things that get said about some of these types of suspension setups, it stayed competative with the DSE car and a bunch of others. Now I don't know if their Camaro sub is different (other than the obvious Nova vs Camaro basic design differences) but I'd be willing to try it.

I say at the very least, drive it with the TCI and check it out. If you don't like it - call me - I'll buy it off you

Take a look at the video Larry posted in the first post of this thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=41148

Steve posted this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HuOEyfYli6Q

I'd love an AM sub but it's not in my budget for now.

I have some DSE subframe connectors I was going to use but I'm not sure they will work with the tubular TCI frame.

That's my 2c on one of the hottest topics in PT.

G.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I watched that Yellow Nova run HARD all day long at the recent OC GoodGuys. I was very impressed with how that car handled. For all the bad things that get said about some of these types of suspension setups, it stayed competative with the DSE car and a bunch of others. G.

I don't want a pissing match. I was not there, but I know a few things from sources there. Your comparing apples to oranges. The Nova had sticky tires, and A little birdy told me it might have had a racing alignment. I know for a fact the DSE car had their standard street alignment and BFG TA KDW2s.

Put a bunch of camber into a set up, maybe tie it down? Put some bubble gum tires on it, and it is a entirely different animal, and not something pleasent to drive on the street.

[Gandalf]

Yeah - I wondered if I should post for exactly this reason. I thought I'd put enough disclaimers in there but at the end of the day, I'm just saying what I saw with my own two eyes, not some word-of-mouth. Plenty of others like yourself Frank with way more experience than I so you'll get no pissing-match from me. My overall advice to the guy is - if the thing has the sub in it already, then try it out first - don't just throw it out because you read a bunch of posts on an Internet board. He owns it, it's installed in the car already, why commit to pulling it out and throwing money at a problem that might not even exist for what he wants to do with the car?

G.