Issues With SPC Lower Control Arms

[HectorM52]

Maybe they should be offered with and with out BJs or come uninstalled.

Yes, most definitely. Would knock off a few bucks too...

Everyone has a BJ press right? Even the LowBucker has a $25 Harbor freight BJ press.

I must be the only one dumb enough to not buy this tool and take it to the shop. Where, by the way, I paid $40 to have the old ones pressed out and the new ones in. DOH!!!

[shep]

I don't know it this will work or not but you might be able to take a punch and peen a couple of rows around the inside of the control arm to tighten it up.

[PT Goat]

I don't know that it's the right solution, but I welded mine in this afternoon. So much for them being rebuildable. I sure wish I hadn't greased them before I hit them with the welder. That grease stinks when it gets hot.

[LowBuckX]

If the dirt trackers are getting away with it I say go for it. Those dirt trackers take a beating race after race way more than a street car can throw at them....

[HectorM52]

I don't know that it's the right solution, but I welded mine in this afternoon. So much for them being rebuildable. I sure wish I hadn't greased them before I hit them with the welder. That grease stinks when it gets hot.

Did you do a full bead all the way around?



Or just a few tacks?

I was thinking about doing 4-6 tacks and calling it a day.

[PT Goat]

One arm was already installed, so I was working on my back with the rotor in the way. I did three tacks on that arm at 9, 12, and 3 o'clock. On the arm that wasn't installed yet, I did four tacks. I did about 1cm tacks to be safe.

[Marcus SC&C]

Okay guys,there`s no big issue here. The nails already been hit on the head. Howe ball joints are EXACTLY the same size as OE ball joints. Moog and other aftermarket ball joints are NOT. They know that the press fit in the stock sheetmetal arms is a poor one at best and that everytime the ball joints are replaced they get looser so they`re added either splines or waves to the body of their ball joints to make them oversized and fit work arms (that`s why Moog calls their Problem Solvers!). They`re assuming 99.99% of their ball joints will be going into worn out stock arms,and they`re right. Many (many!) times we`ve found even that isn`t enough and had to tack weld them in anyway. Years ago we made it our shop standard procedure on all of them. In any form of racing that allows press in ball joints you are required to weld them in for safety purposes. SPC has to make the arms to fit the available ball joints and they fit perfectly. If they made them OE size the oversized ball joints wouldn`t fit at all. When we change them for Howe OE size ball joints they can sometimes be a bit loose. Just tack them in place and you`re good to go. In use the weight of the car pulls UP on the lower ball joints so the only time they can pop out is with the car jacked up in th garage anyway.
I`ve talked to SPC about selling arms sans ball joints and we may be able to get them at some point but right now they`re working like crazy just to get the std. arms done and shipped and they`re not going to pull arms from the production line,add a new part number,allocate warehouse space etc. for a no ball joint arm at this time. Bottom line,there`s no problem it`s just like denting a set of headers for clearance or tweaking an out of the box Holley it`s just hotrodding. Mark SC&C

[LowBuckX]

Yes, most definitely. Would knock off a few bucks too...





I must be the only one dumb enough to not buy this tool and take it to the shop. Where, by the way, I paid $40 to have the old ones pressed out and the new ones in. DOH!!!

Harbor freight ,, Its a very large c clamp like tool with adapter to do king pin universal joints and ball joints,,, works perfect.

[HectorM52]

Okay guys,there`s no big issue here. The nails already been hit on the head. Howe ball joints are EXACTLY the same size as OE ball joints. Moog and other aftermarket ball joints are NOT. They know that the press fit in the stock sheetmetal arms is a poor one at best and that everytime the ball joints are replaced they get looser so they`re added either splines or waves to the body of their ball joints to make them oversized and fit work arms (that`s why Moog calls their Problem Solvers!). They`re assuming 99.99% of their ball joints will be going into worn out stock arms,and they`re right. Many (many!) times we`ve found even that isn`t enough and had to tack weld them in anyway. Years ago we made it our shop standard procedure on all of them. In any form of racing that allows press in ball joints you are required to weld them in for safety purposes. SPC has to make the arms to fit the available ball joints and they fit perfectly. If they made them OE size the oversized ball joints wouldn`t fit at all. When we change them for Howe OE size ball joints they can sometimes be a bit loose. Just tack them in place and you`re good to go. In use the weight of the car pulls UP on the lower ball joints so the only time they can pop out is with the car jacked up in th garage anyway.
I`ve talked to SPC about selling arms sans ball joints and we may be able to get them at some point but right now they`re working like crazy just to get the std. arms done and shipped and they`re not going to pull arms from the production line,add a new part number,allocate warehouse space etc. for a no ball joint arm at this time. Bottom line,there`s no problem it`s just like denting a set of headers for clearance or tweaking an out of the box Holley it`s just hotrodding. Mark SC&C

Thanks Marcus - I can't wait to get home and git-ur-dun!!!!

[LowBuckX]

My first remark was a bit premature now the problem is obviouse and a non issue. As long as you have a welder handy..

[MrQuick]

I alway run a few tacks on the lowers...well, that when I use steel arms.

[DeltaT]

As someone that is ran into this exact problem SIX YEARS later (this morning), I would have expected one or both of these: 1) Preferred - SPC solves the problem by now and has 2 version depending on which LBJ you are planning to use, or 2) Marcus warns you up front that this is a problem and that you should plan on welding these in.

It's pretty cheesy to find that a problem existed for this long and that you have to grind off the powder-coat on these expensive pieces you bought to weld on something that was sold as a compatible option. That and the fact that chunks of the powder-coat are falling off over the SPC welds and you have a product that I am quickly losing faith in.

Jim

[killer69]

So I gotta ask, if this is a problem can some one tell me why this is "The Hot ticket" I don't get it? what is so good about the Howe BJ and the SPC Arms? just curious, what makes you think a TACK weld is going to hold your ball joint in? I guess it is no big deal I mean it's ONLY the front suspension.

[Marcus SC&C]

DeltaT, well as so often happens digging up ancient posts just gives you hopelessly out of date information. Let`s set the record straight. 1) SPC actually DID address the issue...6 years ago. As it turns out the issue was caused by US manufacturers of ball joints starting to buy their products from overseas from multiple manufacturers and putting whatever they bought into their familiar boxes. GM called out the original size for ball joints to have the proper press fit. But as time passed factory arms stretched out past OE tolerances and original sized ball joints didn`t fit so the industry introduced oversized ball joints. Problem is that there is no spec for "oversized". I`ve consulted with 5 other A arm manufacturers and all of them have had issues with getting different size ball joints with the same part number. Tolerances run from .001" to .015" (!) over sized for GM press in lower ball joints. So manufacturers changed the tolerances on the lower A arms to suit each shipment of ball joints and they work fine. The problem comes when you need to change them...weather the ball joints are Howe, NAPA, Moog you can run into issues. We see it much more often with OE replacement joints because they`re all different. With SPC, they were one of the first in the industry to start buying their ball joints direct from the manufacturer rather than from a distributor like Moog. We worked with them (6 years ago) to make sure the ones they use are the same size as Howe because we so often use the Howe ball joints in those arms. We`ve had no problems since then. Which brings us to 2). I`m not in the habit of warning people about things that used to happen but don`t anymore and haven`t for years. BTW I looked up your name and car in our system so I could give you a call and help you out with your problem but we can`t find any sales for a Jim or James with an `81 Malibu and SPC lower A arms. Is it possible you bought them used and they`re older arms? I`ve not seen any peeling paint either, could they have been damaged? In any event please give either us (if you bought them from us) or SPC (if you didn`t) a call and we`ll help you out either way.
Blake, the same issue sometimes occurs with your A arms from the same era. The Howe ball joints are all the same size and the ones you were using were coming in different sizes. I guess you don`t remember but we spoke about that very issue some years ago. It was a common problem with most manufacturers for a few years, you just didn`t hear about it much in public because folks weren`t swapping out their ball joints right away.
What`s so good about the Howe ball joints and SPC arms? Where have you been? ;) The Howe ball joints are the gold standard for motorsports from asphalt modifies and NASCAR Sprint Cup to SCCA TransAm and GT1 etc. They`ve even inspired a whole passel of offshore knockoffs. They`re the only American ball joints available for these cars and made with aerospace quality materials and precision. Their modular construction allows us to change the pin heights to re-engineer the geometry of muscle cars front ends.
The SPC arms may not be quite as pretty as yours but they have some very useful features like adjustable ride height, additional sway bar end link mounting locations and altered geometry to re-center the front wheels in the fenders for better tire clearance at higher caster settings.
As for tack welding ball joints, it`s a very common practice that`s older than you and I. The weight of the car holds the ball joints in place and load is only really placed on the welds when the car is jacked up and the tires are off the ground. Even then the loads are very light, just the weight of the spindle and brakes etc. not the whole car. The term "tack" is probably inaccurate, although I use it as that is the common terminology throughout the racing community. It would be more accurate to say short, hot beads with good penetration. Generally they are done one at a time and allowed to cool completely in between. 4 welds opposing each other will prevent warping the housing out of round. This method is considered a safety measure and is suggested or even required by many racing sanctioning bodies. Many racing ball joints are actually sold as "weld in ball joints". See links:
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techar...ll_joints.html
http://www.talmsracing.com/rules
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1970-9...rms,59017.html
http://pitstopusa.com/i-5066759-alls...trw-10264.html

[youngmuscle]

Just give Mark a call. The guy will give me an hour of his time anytime I call and is my favorite company to deal with bar none. Sorry your having issues, hope it all works out----sucks to modify something new I know.
Mark, hope your doing good man. Almost outta this damn place, cant wait to get home and install the new stuff!

-Paul

[1967 kmberjo ss]

"We worked with them (6 years ago) to make sure the ones they use are the same size as Howe because we so often use the Howe ball joints in those arms. We`ve had no problems since then. "

"I`m not in the habit of warning people about things that used to happen but don`t anymore and haven`t for years."

Really? Then why did the arms I bought last year (and were NOT old stock--shipped directly from SPC after the OLD STOCK, OLD STYLE ones you shipped me had dimensional problems) have this same issue? I pressed out the SPC ball joints (using the correct tools so I know I did not stretch the hole), and the Howe ball joints pressed in almost by hand. The reality is that SPC used splined ball joints that ruin the tolerance on the hole; they do NOT use ball joints matching OEM specs. AND ON TOP OF IT, I contacted Howe last year and they verified that the 22421 ball joint measures oversize at 2.013" nominal (contrary to what you keep telling everyone "Howe ball joints are EXACTLY the same size as OE ball joints."). And I just happen to have the SPC ball joints on my desk. The od (on the majors of the splines) measures 2.015. SO, if SPC actually used non-splined ball joints with OE dimensions, the Howe ball joint WOULD BE press fit (but would probably be TOO BIG if the hole was sized the same as OE).

If I would have been warned I would have saved my money ($150!!) on the howe ball joints and just used the SPC ones. It sucked having to sand all of the powdercoat off for weld, weld them, and then mask and paint the arms. When it was all said and done it still does not look that great because the paint is nowhere near as durable as the powdercoat--it looks like crap where the sway bar end links contact the area I had to paint. Sure, the Howe ball joints are great as Mark says, but are they really worth all this hassle? My vote is NO.

You know, Mark, this is a perfect time to let everyone know how great of a time I had last summer. I'll tell the story, and they can form their own opinion.

1) Ordered stage II kit (SPC UCAs) from you for my wife's 67 camaro. You charged my credit card within a day or two, AND THEN TOOK OVER A MONTH TO GET ME THE PARTS. An excuse and apology later, I had UCAs.
2) Opened the box. Crooked installed zerk fitting, bad chromate coating. Another excuse, another apology.
3) A WEEK LATER, I get the replacement parts. A week? From Colorado (SPC) to Wisconsin? Parts were shipped poorly-nothing separating the two parts and they were in a paper padded envelope. The paper envelope had a hole blown through the side of it. Amazing the parts did not get lost. The car was already laid up longer than I wanted--so I decided to just use them even though they were all scratched up.
4) I decided to use SPC lowers, because my lowers were kind of beat up and I was worried about the tire rubbing at the rear of the fender opening. I had two options, order from Summit or Jegs--$10 cheaper and free shipping ($30-40) but not in stock -or- order from SCandC and they are in stock. Since the car was already ripped apart a month longer than I wanted it to be, I chose #2. Received the lowers. The parts were completely unusable due to them being welded crooked. After hearing every excuse in the book (from Mark) as to how the parts are ok to use and I am looking at them wrong, I finally just took pictures of them to show how completely obvious it is that the parts are messed up. More wasted time (and I could have just ordered them from Jegs and saved $40-50 since now they were coming from SPC direct-same as if I ordered from Jegs). I also noticed that the Hotchkis 2" lowering springs I had do not fit in the lower spring pocket. Google it and find that others have been frustrated by this too, only to get excuses thrown at them. I specifically asked if the new arms had bolt in lower seats (since I learned that SPC arms for other applications use bolt in seats). Mark said no.
5) Get the new arms drop shipped from SPC. Guess what, these arms do have bolt in lower seats. I sent back the Hotchkis springs and had to eat $30 shipping based on the assumption that the replacement arms would have the same seats and would work poorly with the Hotchkis springs. They would have worked fine. More excuses.
6) I purchased replacement springs from Eibach (1" lowering). The LCA arms Mark sent me (the unusable ones) were 2" drop arms. With the bolt in spacers that are used in the redesigned arms--they are now 1" drop arms. I can now not get the vehicle any lower than a 2" drop if I wanted to. More excuses.
7) Took the car to an alignment shop. The max attainable caster was just over 3 degrees before running out of adjuster length on the UCA. Contacted Mark, and got all sorts of excuses about how every car is different, etc. The only thing he would offer me was to exchange (at my buck for shipping each way) my front adjusters for a longer set (and he stressed that they needed to be undamaged, almost insisting that any marks would mean they are undamaged--how the hell was my suspension guy supposed to install them without leaving some wrench marks on them). HE ALSO STATED that he would need to receive the old ones back before shipping out the new ones. So I am supposed to have the car sitting at a alignment shop torn apart rather than him just sending me out the right parts so they could be swapped right away? That was last fall. The car was going into storage so I just said screw it. Just the other day I called SPC, and the person I spoke to informed me that the arms they sell for a 67 camaro use a 4" and 5" adjuster. SCandC arms use two 4" adjusters. SPC graciously sent me two 5" adjusters free of charge. Just to get a laugh out of it, I sent the emails that SPC sent me to Mark. Does anyone want to guess what I got? More excuses. The SPC guy is new. SCandC does not sell part number 94305s. My car is not typical and Mark knows what is best. Blah blah blah. So rather than Mark overnight shipping me a set of 5" adjusters last fall and me getting the car aligned once and done--I gave up in defeat and had the alignment guy set it to 2.8 and 3.2 positive caster. I had no more fight left in me. Well a long winter of not having to look at the car and not having to talk to Mark and I am ready pull the car out of storage, rip apart the UCAs again and install the 5" adjusters, and eat another $70 alignment to get the alignment where I want it.

I guess that is just "hot rodding", right Mark? It is good to see you give the same excuses to everyone, not just me. I thought hot rodding was mating a nailhead motor to a Ford transmission and putting it in a Pontiac. Not buying parts meant to fit a 67 Camaro and going through everything I just explained to to make them work in a 67 Camaro.

All this said, I still believe that the SPC/SCandC package is the most bang for your buck set of parts out there, and that Mark really does know what it takes to "Make your Muscle Car Handle" (he has his own book that I just gave him a free plug on). What continues to piss me off is the constant "I am right, you are wrong" arrogant mentality, and the constant inability to just cut the crap and do what is right. Once you become an expert on something (in this case, making cars handle), it tends to go to your head and convince you that you are right on everything, which he definitely is not.

My wife's car handles great now not in spite of, but because of Mark's guidance. I will end this long post on this. I put all of the decals that I get from vendors on my tool box drawers. Last summer I dealt with over two dozen companies and $10k in parts--and now my toolbox is covered in decals. Amusingly enough, though, is that a SCandC decal will NEVER grace my tool box (I guess it doesn't matter anyways since SCandC doesn't send decals with their parts). haha

[Marcus SC&C]

You`re replying to a post about G body arms that are completely different than those for your `67 Camaro. The G body arms have been good to go. For that matter so have the Camaro ones except for one guy who pressed the ball joints out really crooked and admitted it, and yours. SPC made good for it and I tried my best to be a go between. I probably should have stayed out of it. Howe 22421 ball joints WERE stock size originally but were changed some time ago, partially because of issues with other ball joints for the application all being oversized. Most Howe ball joints remain factory size. I just measured several SPC ball joints from stock and they all measure 2.012". Since you got yours we`ve probably installed Howe ball joints in 6 sets at the shop and sold hundreds of them with no other problems. Maybe an issue with yours being the first of the new arms, rushing to get them done and someone grabbed some old stock ball joints? I have no idea but the issue no longer exists.
1) We apologized and explained the reason why (which I forget). What else can we do?
2) We don`t manufacture the arms, we sell them. We are a retailer. I spoke to them about it so they would be more careful in the future.
3) We didn`t pack and ship the arms. They were boxed at and shipped direct from SPC.
4) We didn`t weld the arms together, we only shipped the box. Again we spoke with them about it but we have no time machine to change the past. Distorted subframe mounts are very common and we had never seen an SPC arm that didn`t fit before (or since) so my first reaction was to have you recheck the subframe. 99% of the time that is the reason for LCA fitment issues with any arm, aftermarket or stock. In your case it was the rare 1% but I`m still going to advise people with the most likely answer first and then explore remote possibilities. Google Hotchkis spring fitment problems, or just measure them and you`ll see the 1st gen and `64-`72 A body fronts are often oversized OD. No issues with stock replacement,Global West, Eibach or DSE springs fitting.
5) You got the very first of the new series of A arms. There were no more old ones to send you. At the time they had not notified me of the change.
6) SPC engineers redesigned the arms and their drop. For some cars the 2" drop was nice but their feedback said most folks didn`t want it. It wasn`t my call to make.
7) We offered to replace undamaged parts for free. How the hell would you damage hard anodized adjusters unless the shop doing it was careless? Typically people take the car home and take the adjusters off, send them back and then replace them with the new ones. You know, like over that long winter that you weren`t driving the car. Tom at SPC IS new. He just started there and quoted you specs for arms intended for stock geometry with stock ride height. It`s the only one of the three 1st gen arms SPC makes that has 5" adjusters on the front. The others, which SPC has been selling for about 10 years have 4" adjusters because they work best on lowered performance cars. Even so SPC still sent you 5" adjusters for free.
You had a bad experience, I get that. But nobody is out to get you or ruin your life. It`s not personal. SPC had a few missteps but they made good on them. We`ve been building hot rods and race cars for 30 years with all brands of parts and I can tell you SPC is one of the better ones and they really care about their customers. As for my personality, you`re welcome to your opinion. I`m quite certain I`m not right about everything, just ask my wife.
You had a few speed bumps in the road but at the end of the day you have a car that I`m confident will out perform cars costing 3x as much. You should be able to enjoy it for many years to come. You`ll forget the hassles but you`ll still have a great car.

[1967 kmberjo ss]

Whatever you say, Mark. Until dementia comes in my later years, I will not forget the crap summer of 2013 dealing with bad experiences centered around you (NOT SPC). You forgot the "s" on experience. Plural. It is amazing the odds that stacked against me. "1%...first of this...rushing..." I think the odds of getting hit by lightning are better than the odds of the special series of events occurring that you suggest. But hell, it looks like you will state anything that absolves you of the responsibility of admitting culpability.

Like I said, DOZENS OF COMPANIES, $10K IN PARTS, YET ONLY PROBLEMS WITH ONE PERSON.

Responding to your statement above won't result in anything other than another response from you saying the same old crap, and I don't have the intestinal fortitude to read anymore of your responses or listen to you jabber non-stop excuses over the phone. I'm done.

[TLWiltman]

Makes me wonder why screw-in BJs aren't used more often though. Spindles are fairly easy to modify and a Howe could probably be made into a hybrid. (772 cup looks like it takes the same ball as a 1st or 2nd gen camaro). Just kinda wondering.