1st Gen Mustang suspension options?

[skooli]

This summer I plan on starting to go the pro touring route with my 68 Fastback, but I'm not sure what I want to do about the suspension. I think, for my driving skill level, stiffening up the current suspension and dropping the upper control arm would be sufficient. I have 620 coil springs with factory style Moog control arms, a big front sway bar, 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, Shelby style under-ride traction bars, and welded in subframe connectors. It still feels a bit soft for high performance driving. Should I just improve my current set up or go for something like a ridetech or TCP? The new DSE systems look amazing, but they are a bit out of my budget. Also the plan is to possibly do some road course events. Bear in mind I am a novice driver.

[marolf101x]

what shocks are you currently running? stiff springs and sway bars require more shock valving. You may be able to get that "performance" feel without purchasing a whole kit just yet (after you run some events, get some experience, and become a better driver you may want to look into a full kit, but for now I'd start here):
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-7...hq-series.html
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-7...hq-series.html

[Red67Mustang]

Check out www.streetortrack.com

Talk to Shaun (owner), he's very helpful.

Also check out www.OpentrackerRacingProducts.com

[Blue Oval Man]

Check out www.streetortrack.com

Talk to Shaun (owner), he's very helpful.

Also check out www.OpentrackerRacingProducts.com

I would also highly recommend both these businesses. Both Shaun at S&T and John at OTRP know their stuff and their products make a world of difference in how the car performs. I have run Opentracker parts on previous projects and am going to be running them again on my wifes 68 fastback which has been getting a pro-touring build for the last 15 years.

[Classic Nova & Performance]

We are a dealer for DSE, but since you said you weren't looking to go that route I would recommend Maier Racing. Mike races a 66 and does quite well. He has entry level to advanced level suspension kits & is a very knowledgeable guy.

Maier Racing Enterprises
Hayward, CA
510-581-7600 Ext: 200
[email protected]

Of course if you want pricing or info on the DSE AlumaFrame be sure to drop me a line.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

We've got a Custom IFS and a Torque Arm available that both use ridetech shocks.



-J

[skooli]

We are a dealer for DSE, but since you said you weren't looking to go that route I would recommend Maier Racing. Mike races a 66 and does quite well. He has entry level to advanced level suspension kits & is a very knowledgeable guy.

Maier Racing Enterprises
Hayward, CA
510-581-7600 Ext: 200
[email protected]

Of course if you want pricing or info on the DSE AlumaFrame be sure to drop me a line.

I think the set up on the '66 is probably similar to what I'd like to do. I'm planning on doing the work this summer. I'm also looking to improve the steering. I know a lot guys go with a Borgeson steering box or rack and pinion. I think the Borgeson conversion with a tighter ratio box would probably be the easiest way to go. But will it work with my long tube headers? Thanks for the replies. It seems like it's been harder to find info on the Mustang than it is for my Camaro.

[Maier Motorsports]

Brad,
This is Mike Maier, Your car sounds the same as a lot of our cars when we started out. 620's, subs and a few other odds and ends. One of the valuable things that I have learned over the years was that I hated buying something I thought was super cool but it turned out to be special in a not so special way. With this info I have tried to purchase product that allows to grow with the car and to re purchase as little as possible. This generally means a bit more homework than I really cared to do and a little more money than I thought I wanted to spend. This will save money in the long run and give you the feel you were really hoping for. As for the steering we have tried a number of systems and we have found a little company who sells a box that we mix and match with some other parts that seems to work well. ABS Power Brake co sells a cool box that we put with a KRC pump. We have done the Borgeson boxes and they are very nice... However this is the homework part. The ABS box is a little faster ratio and it also gives a little more resistance in the wheel. This is merely a Bio feedback thing. It's what makes me feel a little more warm and fuzzy sideways through a turn. I rarely hover around the forums but I thought I would through my two cents on the pot. Good luck.

[skooli]

Brad,
This is Mike Maier, Your car sounds the same as a lot of our cars when we started out. 620's, subs and a few other odds and ends. One of the valuable things that I have learned over the years was that I hated buying something I thought was super cool but it turned out to be special in a not so special way. With this info I have tried to purchase product that allows to grow with the car and to re purchase as little as possible. This generally means a bit more homework than I really cared to do and a little more money than I thought I wanted to spend. This will save money in the long run and give you the feel you were really hoping for. As for the steering we have tried a number of systems and we have found a little company who sells a box that we mix and match with some other parts that seems to work well. ABS Power Brake co sells a cool box that we put with a KRC pump. We have done the Borgeson boxes and they are very nice... However this is the homework part. The ABS box is a little faster ratio and it also gives a little more resistance in the wheel. This is merely a Bio feedback thing. It's what makes me feel a little more warm and fuzzy sideways through a turn. I rarely hover around the forums but I thought I would through my two cents on the pot. Good luck.

All that being said, do you recommend that I start with shocks to stiffen it up? Then as I start driving it on tracks, modify it where I think it needs improvement? Right now all I know is it's moderately fast in a straight line, but the giant steering wheel turns 137 times lock to lock (also with no power steering) and it feels long and heavy. It has quite a bit of body roll and doesn't feel nimble at all. In comparison my Wife's BMW 530i feels nimble, like it's glued to the road and the steering has a ton of feedback. You know exactly how the steering wheel is going to affect the car. That's where I would like my Mustang to be (even if I don't get into track events). I know it's never going to handle like a new BMW, but I'd like a system that has room for growth.

[bikefreak600]

on my 65 fastback i got cpp subframe kit with upper & lower arms. i am modifying it to use adjustable coilovers mounted to the lower arms & shock towers similar to the ron morris & TCP kits. i basically bought the CPP arm kit to use as a base to modify to my liking. i chose the CPP kit because i like how their lower arm mounting points rotate on the same axis ( just like other double arm designs, including the dse setup), there is no geometry rotation that is experienced with a strut arm. i think it would be a great handling set up at much lower cost than other kits.

for brakes i went with mustang cobra calipers & 13'' rotors, mustang steve brackets. due to the ease of getting aftermarket replacement rotors & pads are cheap and available everywhere.

[CTSV]

I have owned over 15 mustangs and tried every bolt on to the new DSE. I will say the DSE kit on my 70 fastback is just incredible but its very expensive and to do this conversion right and is not within everyones budget

Out of all the bolt on currently i think the TCP total control makes awesome front end parts and their steering rack is the best you can get. I am not a fan of the Varishocks, i really like the ridetech shocks. If you do any rear 4 links make sure you weld them in and beef up the center of the floor where the pinion snubber mounts as this is where alot of the load is put. I prefer the TCP arms and 4 link over the ridetech unit because of the spherical bearings they use for articulation and bind free operation.

I have hear great stuff about the Street or track as well they are using quality parts and they test them often so you cant go wrong as another option.

I wasnt happy with using the stock suspension points on my car which led to the massive DSE surgery.

If i were you i would mix and match parts and do some unibody stiffening and you should be quite happy.

[bikefreak600]

I have owned over 15 mustangs and tried every bolt on to the new DSE. I will say the DSE kit on my 70 fastback is just incredible but its very expensive and to do this conversion right and is not within everyones budget

Out of all the bolt on currently i think the TCP total control makes awesome front end parts and their steering rack is the best you can get. I am not a fan of the Varishocks, i really like the ridetech shocks. If you do any rear 4 links make sure you weld them in and beef up the center of the floor where the pinion snubber mounts as this is where alot of the load is put. I prefer the TCP arms and 4 link over the ridetech unit because of the spherical bearings they use for articulation and bind free operation.

I have hear great stuff about the Street or track as well they are using quality parts and they test them often so you cant go wrong as another option.

I wasnt happy with using the stock suspension points on my car which led to the massive DSE surgery.

If i were you i would mix and match parts and do some unibody stiffening and you should be quite happy.

chassy stiffening is more important than the actual suspension components. imo the DSE setup is a glorified mustang II setup. in doing so you loose a lot of torsional rigidness of the car by removing shock towers/ export brace. that is crucial to stopping flex of the car. i would not consider doing either suspension unless you are going to intstall roll cage with overhead bars that connect the main loop to the front of the frame rails. handling wise i bet it works awesome

[Maier Motorsports]

Hey there, Mike Maier here again. I'm sitting here home sick surfing the forums and I came across this thread. I totally forgot about this, sorry. Let's break down what you are really looking for. I believe what you are looking for is response. What creates response? Let's look at it like this. When you tug on the wheel what is the chain of events?
#1 As you mentioned school bus like steering makes you steer the heck out of it but the wheels barely move, here in lies the importance of steering ratio.
#2 As the wheels move what are they doing in relation to each other (dynamic alignment ) A lot of companies will come up with cool looking parts but the tires might toe in during turning. Most people might be intimidated by this mambo jumbo but it is hugely important and I garon tee those BMW engineers thought about this. It just so happens that the ford boys thought of this as well. The only problem was the hydrolic system couldn't keep up. That is where the newer age of steering boxes helps this problem out. It now becomes a feel thing, which one makes you feel the best as you drive it. This is where a quality pump can greatly help.
#3 The response time of the side wall of your tires. Do you have supper hoopty 14" wheels with 70 series sidewalls? The wheel might move but the tire has to flex before the contact patch moves. Larger sidewall= slower tire response = slower steering response.
#4 Flex of components. The front is pretty good in this field however the rear is not so good and I didn't see this one until I experienced it myself. The leaf springs can flex up to 2" side to side. The car will not change directions very crisply until it has flexed the leafs all they can. Then the car starts changing direction. This flex also makes the car hard to predict because you are attempting to predict where the car is with respect to "the edge".This is where a lateral control device comes in to play. Some companies do watts links, we do panhard rod kits. The deciding factor here is packaging and bang for buck. I was totally surprised in the effectiveness of this factor.
#5 Now the shocks start to take affect. The shocks are what I like to call transitional tools. They can make the car flop or respond crisply. A challenge with the old mustang is the shocks are moved in quiet aways from the wheel towards the chassis. The closer the shocks are to the chassis the more the wheel can move before having much dampening or controlled response . This is why you will see companies like myself move the shocks closer to the wheel. The next thing is choosing a shock. There are two type of shocks generally speaking . Twin tube or mono tube shocks. Although there are wonderful twin tube shocks we have had the most success with mono tubes due to the fact that the piston in the shock is larger on average which will move more fluid faster which can give you better control. You can see examples of this in the old Monroe's that the Bud Moore cars used and also Bilsteins and JRI shocks. I think that BMW uses Bilsteins too. It sounds like a lot of teck but why not understand a bit if you have two sets of shocks in front

[Mateospeed]

I'll toss my opinion in on this one as well, as it's near and dear to my heart! A little background on me: I'm a mechanical engineer for Cussed 'Em HotRods, a shop in NC that specializes in daily-driven hotrods and pro-touring cars. Currently, we have a '66 Mustang on the rotisserie in the middle of a pro-touring build that has gone through several iterations of suspension, steering, and chassis design. This time around, everything's being made completely custom, no purchased components anywhere.

So, here's a bit of what we've learned on this specific car: feel is the biggest thing you can do to make this car enjoyable, on- and off-track. Feel comes from deflection (or a lack thereof) in every component between the road surface and you. So, anything that moves decreases feel (alternatively, precision of feedback). Of course, something have to move to be effective (tires), and some things should move a little (bushings) so that your internal organs don't rupture when you hit a bump.

Anything that moves more than necessary is bad, so when we're trying to make a car "feel" better, or provide more driver feedback, we target the areas of largest deflection (movement) possible. First and fore-most: the steering. Bite the bullet and change to a steering rack. Which brand, type, etc. is up to you; the important part is eliminating the slop inherent in a reciprocating-ball style steering box. Make sure it's mounted nice and stiff (bushings are OK, but soft rubber stuff is silly - go with polyurethane or similar) and have some way to adjust for bump-steer. A track-oriented steering ratio is certainly recommended, as Mike Maier stated - the quicker the ratio, the more force and less movement will be fed back into the steering wheel, increasing feel. Starting to see a pattern??

The second thing I recommend is actually driver restraint. A decent seat and belts will help you enjoy your car on track (even as a novice) so much more than any other modification. I've been racing in NASA & SCCA for years, and instructing for driver's schools for longer - all the experts seems to agree that minimizing driver movement is a top priority when setting up a new car.

Locating the rear end is pretty awesomely important. I agree completely with Mike on this issue - leaf springs move laterally a LOT! Don't worry so much about the spring rates themselves, but locate that rear end somehow. The most popular methods are Panhard (pronounced puh-nard, not pan-hard - it's frenchman's name!) bars and Watt's links. The steering wheel only turns the front wheels, not the rears! Don't try to fight a car that turns if and when it wants to; force it to do what you want by controlling where your rear tires go laterally.

From there, don't worry too much about the front suspension. A nice shelby drop on your upper control arms does a great job of improving the camber curve. Don't go nuts trying to lower the car and make it really stiff - the geometry of the stock suspension gets pretty screwy at low ride heights. You're not after maximum cornering force at this point, just feel and balance. I do, however, suggest going to stiffer bushings and lower-friction spring perches, available from the companies mentioned above. OTRP has a great rep These things will allow the deflection from roll and lateral acceleration to act in the direction it was intended - compression the suspension - instead of squishing the bushings in laterally, messing everything up. Very cheap compared to changing to a completely new suspension system, which you DON'T need at this point!

Add front and rear sway bars, both from the same company, and make sure at least one is adjustable, and both are intended for your existing springs. This will allow you to simply tune the understeer/ oversteer balance of the car. Driving a car that has moderate grip and is balanced is WAY more fun than driving a car with lots of grip but is poorly balanced. It's all about dancing right on the edge of traction, which is most easily done with a balanced car.

Shocks - Yeah, don't go nuts yet. Assuming the shocks are in good working shape, and are reasonably matched to the spring rates you're running, don't mess with them - yet. Lock down the stuff that moves laterally, and DRIVE THE CAR. Enjoy, replace tires, repeat.

When you get used to the car and get some events under your belt, start looking at (in this order): brakes, front hubs (the stock wheel bearings deflect a bunch under load, causing something called pad knock-back), and front suspension packages, focusing on moving the shock outboard, for the reasons Mike has stated. If you're upgrading the suspension, don't bother going with a strut-type front; it's not suited to track use. Go with a double-a-arm setup. Then, go to some better shocks. Probably no need to change the springs for a long time!

Go, enjoy, and spend your money on the things that will increase your enjoyment the most, not what will make the car fastest on paper!


-Matt

[skooli]

Man, thanks a bunch! I think I know the route I'm going to take now. I'm in the process of buying a house so I've been kind of distracted. The good thing is the house has a 30'x40' air conditioned shop. You guys have all taken some things that I sort of understood and actually put them into proper perspective for me. As soon as I figure out this house situation and work out my budget, I'll get started. I hope to be starting a build thread in June or July, and maybe even show up to an event somewhere by next fall. Thanks again for all the expert advice.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Hey Brad, Sorry I missed this thread when you first posted. I won't go into a huge long description of our TCP components as they have already been mentioned in this thread. Instead, take some time to click this link and read the technical and installation articles - http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_tech_articles.html

However, I will post some pics of TCP Equipped Mustangs. Who doesn't like looking at pics of nice cars, right?

Udo's Nurburgring '67 Fastback


Matt and Sheri's 1000hp Turbo '65 Fastback aka "K-OTIC"


Matt's 'Black Mamba' '67 Eleanor


Pete's '68 GT500 from Australia


Todd and Stephanie's '65 Convertible

Out of all the bolt on currently i think the TCP total control makes awesome front end parts and their steering rack is the best you can get.

Thanks!

[chetly]

Taken directly off Maier Racing's facebook page. This is the car that gets driven on the street as well as auto-x'ed on the weekends. Those are 315's front/rear, none of this 245f/295r "s#!t"...

[67TXStang]

Great thread. Thanks for everyone who responded. I'm going to bookmark this so I can reference it later.

[Dave B]

It's answered a few questions I had, that's for sure.

[Mateospeed]

All that and minimal flare! Mike, what's your turning radius like with this setup?