Fatman Spindles

[6'9"Witha69]

What I find is plenty of guys pumping their own stuff and blasting anybody with a different opinion.

Funny, all the vendors here have the SAME opinion and while they have competing packages, get along quite well. Misinformation is bashed and we will all back that.

Here in NASCAR country, there are plenty of different educated opinions on how best to make a car handle.

:bsjerk:

[TitoJones]

You say you have the numbers for the Chevelle and Camaro eh? Post them up. I've posted our numbers for our AFX spindle, and we are not shy about what it is capable of. I'd like to see a graph with the following info on it:

Vehicle year, make and model
Alignment specs (static caster, static camber, and toe)
Upper control arm manufacturer
Spindle, & steering arm used
Amount of total suspension travel measured, and the bumpsteer measurement at each point in 1/2 increments.

I hate to break it to you, but there are no opinions in math or geometry. It is either correct or it isn't. It is like saying 'I think the best way to get 4 is by adding 2 + 1.' It doesn't work that way.

I have some other questions about your spindle if you will actually answer them with technical data, that can be verified with CAD or pictures, or, well- anything at this point.

What is the overall height of the spindle?
What is the king pin inclination?
Where did you relocate the upper ball joint attachment point in relation to factory?
How far did you relocate the steering arm attachment point from factory?
What is the max backspacing you can have on your spindle before the wheel hits the tie rod end?
What is the spindle made from?
Is it forged, cast or billet?
Is it cast/forged/machined here in the USA?
What is the total amount of camber gain in degrees per inch of suspension travel you can get with your tall spindle?
Are you claiming that a factory A body upper control arm can be used with your spindle without going into ball joint bind? If so, do you have pictures of the above combo?
What are your recommended alignment settings for the F and A body cars when using your tall spindle?
What is the total amount of bumpsteer for the A body car over 4.5" of suspension travel (full droop, to full compression?)
What is the total amount of bumpsteer for the F body car over 4.5" of suspension travel (full droop, to full compression?)

That is all I have for today. I'll even answer every question I asked of you, for our own product so you don't feel I'm attacking you.

Here is the camber gain graph for our tall AFX spindle on a 1st gen F body with Global West upper control arms. Recommended alignment specs are as follows:
Camber- 0.25-0.5 neg
Caster- 4.0-5.5 pos
Toe- 1/16" toe in



Here is the caster graph- same setup as above:



Here is the bumpsteer graph:




What is the overall height of the spindle? The overall height of the tall AFX spindle is 8.5"

What is the king pin inclination? The Tall AFX spindle uses a KPI of 8 degrees

Where did you relocate the upper ball joint attachment point in relation to factory? We raised the height by 1.5"

How far did you relocate the steering arm attachment point from factory? For improvement on the F body, we lowered it about .50" from factory. This translated to roughly double on the A body so we made a new steering arm to correct it.

What is the max backspacing you can have on your spindle before the wheel hits the tie rod end? On the Tall AFX spindle which only uses a 7/8" drop you can run up to 6.0" of backspacing.

What is the spindle made from? The Tall AFX spindle is made from Aircraft 6061-T6 aluminum

Is it forged, cast or billet? The Tall AFX spindle is Forged

Is it cast/forged/machined here in the USA? Damn right it is. TX to be exact.

What is the total amount of camber gain in degrees per inch of suspension travel you can get with your tall spindle? Depending on alignment settings and UCA manufacturer anywhere from .7 to .9 degrees of negative camber gain per inch of travel.

Are you claiming that a factory A body upper control arm can be used with your spindle without going into ball joint bind? If so, do you have pictures of the above combo? No way, and not a chance.

What are your recommended alignment settings for the F and A body cars when using your tall spindle? see above graphs.

What is the total amount of bumpsteer for the A body car over 4.5" of suspension travel (full droop, to full compression?) Can't find the figure, but I WILL edit this post when I locate my figures.

What is the total amount of bumpsteer for the F body car over 4.5" of suspension travel (full droop, to full compression?) Thirty-six thousnadths of an inch over 4.5" of travel.

Tyler

[Hidro]

Dont have to wonder where i spend my money ,

thanks tito.

Post numbers if you have them.

[TonyL]

aaaand that is how one "Brings the tech"

And for the record I agree that good handling isn't a matter of "seat of the pants feel", but of recordable and repeatable data and science.

I'd like someone from airride tech to verify the claim they called fatman's product "best".

[baz67]

Wow Tito it seems I have seen those graphs before. Yes Tyler has done exactly what claims.

[Damn True]

Fatman, can we see your test data?

[70bird]

Wow, I just read all of this and my head hurts now.

[TonyL]

Just a quick note to those who've read this far into the thread.
Pretending to be a customer of the company you work for or own is one of the lowest tricks a vendor can pull. We won't stand for it here a pro-touring.com Anyone caught trying to deceive our members will bear the flames they have coming and will NEVER be brought under our umbrella of approved sponsors. We only associate with trustworthy knowledgeable and reliable vendors. We are constantly vigilant on this one and try to catch them all when it happens.

"I got on this site in an effort to learn more about what's going on in the Pro Touring world. If you think that's evil, sorry 'bout that."

Looks like you found out we're a LOT less gullible than street rod guys. And yes. Lying to our members *is* evil.

What I find is plenty of guys pumping their own stuff and blasting anybody with a different opinion.

Pumping their own stuff? You mean like you were? When you were pretending to be someone else? Especially when they *pay* for the right to do so?

Blasting anyone over differing opinions? Well no. They were blasting you for stating things that were simply FALSE and UNTRUE. Pro-touring is built around cars that are driven at the limit of what's possible, so things like safety and handling are kinda important. Matter of fact, it can be sort of a life and death thing. So, the science is kinda critical there. There's no room for seat of the pants "feels good enough for me" parts in the pro-touring world. They need to work. Be proven to work scientifically. People want to spend their money on what won't get them killed. Not what looks shiny and cool, cuz we actually drive these cars hard. And if you say you have data to back up your claims, Now would be a good time to produce it. Cuz Im on the verge of locking this one up, and letting this egg sit on your face forever.

[James OLC]

...logic says they do change the effective length of the control arm. That's not an opinion.

I am sorry; this is not a confidence inspiring quote from any suspension vendor, especially one whose products are intended (?) to be used in a 'hard core' driving environment. Logic is one thing; facts are often another, but a good, proven (and demonstratable) design will always be welcomed.

Here in NASCAR country, there are plenty of different educated opinions on how best to make a car handle.

That is true everywhere. There are several ways to get to the same destination and all of them, in the end, should be quantifiable with good engineering.

When I was researching the suspension options for the ’67 I first went through David’s site and a variety of other internet resources before calling all of the vendors who were offering products or services that appeared to meet the needs of the project. While everyone that I contacted had their own opinions on how to achieve the best possible result for the most part they consistently were able to provide engineering and technical backup to demonstrate their design rational. Those that couldn’t were no longer options in our search. In your own words:

These are questions that will be worth asking when you are shopping. If they can't answer or seem confused, be wary.

That is the one thing that you have said that I have to agree with 100% and, based upon your posts, I am.

And even though it has been said several times already, although there may seem to be “plenty of guys pumping their own stuff and blasting anybody with a different opinion”, Marcus, and Tyler, and Blake, and Kyle, and Mark never pretended to be anything other that what they are – enthusiasts, manufacturers, and supporters of this hobby and this site. I (and I think that I can safely say WE) welcome direct participation from anybody involved in this industry and this hobby/sport in particular, provided they are honest about who they are and their intentions. I would have preferred to read a technical post from “a representative of Fatman” rather than a poorly scripted story. Unfortunately, it reflected poorly on yourself and your company.

Just my 2 bits.

[Damn True]

Well said James. I would not have been so tactfull.

[fatiger53]

Guys, believe it or not, I meant no evil here. I am an enthusiast as well as in the business, as are many of you. When I registered for the site, I recieved the usual welcome email. I responded to that with my identity and said that I wanted to join this site and forum, having heard many good things about the tech info available here. I thought I could learn some things, and maybe pass on a couple things as well.

Had I wanted to disguise myself, I surely would not have used a name with fat in it. Nor did I imagine that anyone watching would not have made the connection. You guys are way sharper than that, and I know that. Perhaps I should have made it VERY clear who I am, but frankly, I thought that would make it MORE likely that guys would ask directly business related questions rather than tech. I participate in other forums with the same name, and have never had a problem like this.

So, being an old guy and probably not as hip to online protocol as I might be (and am now better educated) , I apologize to any and all I may have offended.

[Damn True]

Thanks for the effort there but:

I called Fatman's to ask what they did in their testing. They set up the tall spindle on both a 68 Camaro and a 70 Chevelle. When they did the bumpsteer check, they found that dropping the steering arm .53" got rid of bumpsteer on both chassis.

...and in another thread:

What's the word on the taller dropped spindles by Fatman and Heidts? They are supposed to get a better camber curve as well as the drop.

C'mon dude. You clearly attempted to pass yourself off as "just another dude" and made no attempt at all to present yourself as a principal at Fatman.

[bret]

The universal problem with online conversation is that there is no tone, no inflection, no body language to put a person's words into context. Having known Brent VanDervort of Fatman's for over 12 years I can say that there is no finer human being. I know there was no "evil" intent to disguise his identity but just a simple wish to avoid shameless self promotion. But there is no way for you guys to know that through a simple online conversation.
At this point, with Brent having been thouroughly chastised, and him having acknowledged his faux pax, [real or imagined] I want to lead the charge to live and let live. This is not the first time, nor will it be the last, that someone has offended or been offended. You will find his input to be accurate and relevant to what we all are doing here. While you may not agree with what he [or anyone else] has to say, there is likely something positive that can be taken away.
Now...bring on the marshmellows and lets sing kum-ba-ya!!
BTW...so there is no chance of confusion...I am Bret Voelkel, owner of air ride Technologies.

[eville]

Tito, thanks for the VERY informative post. I almost let this VERY old post slip past, I'm glad I did not.

Fatman, please post up data to backup your claims.
I think Tito asked the best questions. We'd all be satisfied if you responded and continued the discussion.

[TonyL]

I think Tito asked the best questions. We'd all be satisfied if you responded and continued the discussion.

Agreed. I'd like to offically offer Brent an olive branch here. The best way to smooth this thing over is to make good on the promises of numbers to back up the claims made. Bret's vouching for you, so thats a major plus. I'd still like an official answer to the statement
"Airride has tested all the tall spindle set ups, and says our are the best." If that is so, we want to know. I want our members to have the best information and tech data they can find on the internet. That's what everyone wants.

[TitoJones]

Bret (Fatman) and Bret (air ride):

Fatman first-

I don't give 2 sh*ts if you want to pass yourself off as some random bystander on the internet, pretend you work for the NSA or CIA and that you have 12 passports from 9 countries.
What I can't stand is when a company cannot back up a single statement they've made with proven factual data. Fatman is one of those companies. You make street rod stuff, which is great, the market could use another pair of chromed out tubular control arms, but don't think that for one second you belong in this segment.
You are not a Pro-Touring manufacturer, no matter how hard you try to re-brand yourself as one. You have already proven that you don't understand the basic fundamentals of suspension geometry. You have been asked to bring the tech, and you bring apologies. You don't even understand WHY your product doesn't work the way you claim it to. That is a huge problem for a company trying to sell parts in this niche. You said you wanted to learn about the industry, so here is a piece of advice:
Listen to what we are telling you. We know what we are talking about. Read a book on suspension- hell read 3 or 4 of them. Then come back here and answer all the technical questions asked of you.

air ride next-

Bret-

I'm sure the other Bret is one hell of a nice guy who would do anything for one of his friends. I hope to god you realize that when you recommend a manufacturer that has known provable flaws with their stuff that this reflects badly on you. You are knowledgeable on suspensions, so you must comprehend what we are trying to get Fatman to realize. If you don't, there are plenty of us who would love to help educate you, since you have helped this industry for the better.

Tyler

[bret]

I can't believe I'm actually responding to this...
If you are calling me out because I have defended a friend that deserves defending, I plead guilty with no apologies.
I am also aware that Brent's spindles [along with many others] are not perfect. I have not yet seen the perfect product [mine included]. I am also aware that his spindles, in combimation with our StrongArms and ShockWaves make our cars faster and easier to drive on the track and the street. If I must choose between the tape measure and the stopwatch...I'll have to take the stopwatch.
BTW...we looked at your spindles...they're nice too. We ran some camber curve numbers and bumpsteer numbers on Fatman's, Heidt's and the ATS spindles about a year and a half ago. I am digging up those notes now and may start another thread with that data. Unfortunately that data will only tell part of the story. A car suspension consists of more components than the spindles. Also unfortunately, I have to use some of the time it would take to satisfy all the tech junkies to build some product to pay the bills. I'll get out what I can when I can.

Education comes in many forms. Your kind offer to educate me has been preceded by our customers and the race track. You may want to take a peek under the Goodguys Chevelle and our 66 Chevelle that placed 1st and 2nd at the Run Through The Hills Autocross in Pigeon Forge in 2007. And my 70 GSX that won that event there in 2006. Those cars all have the Fatmans G Max spindle on them.
For any that missed those events there will be another opportunity at the Goodguys autocross in Costa Mesa In March as well as several other Goodguys events this summer.

[navyflyer72]

I will add my two cents to this post tentatively. Since it is obvious that there are many bent ego's and possibly even a few bent reputations, I would offer this advice:

Honesty in all you do is the best policy, be it promoting your products abilities, or simply posting an answer to a tech question. If you do not know the answer, just say "I'll find out" and then find out and report back. It works in my business and it will work in yours, and people will respect you for it. No one knows everything and this fact is as true in pro-touring as it is in any business or hobby.

We can all learn from each other, so when it comes to posting lets all leave the fragile ego's behind and come to the table with our cards shown, we could all learn a lot more that way.


That's all I have to say on this because I know virtually NOTHING about suspension geometry... yet.

[zbugger]

Yeah, I think this is about done. If you have issues about this, just let me know and we'll get you taken care of.

[David Pozzi]

So, either we get past this and have a tech discussion, or give up and go work on our cars. Tyler provided some good questions and info, but needs to calm down. I'd like to see similar data for the Fatman spindles please.

I'm all done spankin' fatiger53, - I'm not really enjoying it like I thought I would.
David