Push Button Start with Passive Device Key wanted

[viper11]

just thinking out loud
but:
if you live in a smaller house/townhouse or at bodyshop etc, theres a chance that your keyfob might always be in range (30ft) of your car causing the ignition to always stay on,
I have a separate airplane style ignition switch
jason

[jlmccuan]

If you're talking about mine, there is no ignition power until the RFID supplies power to the Engine Start button AND you push the button AND you keep the button pressed until the delay passes and the oil pressure comes up. If you just want to sit and listen to the radio, get in the unlocked car, press and release the Start button once. To kill the accessories, push and release the button again, get out and walk away with the RFID chip and the car locks up and arms the alarm. This is way simpler than you guys are making it.

[jlmccuan]

With the power and start logic working I'm more concerned at this point with the security portion of the equation. Obviously, if someone clones my RFID, the car is gone. Short of that, what would a theif try and what can be done to counter it?

[jlmccuan]

As to the question of not getting far enough to arm the system when the car is at home, there is a manual arm/disarm button on the RFID chip.

[matty b]

some of them also have an antennae that can be shortened up to adjust the range that a fob works. As far as cloning the RFID, I highly doubt that any thief with the capabilty is going to go after a classic car when they could steal a $50k+ luxury vehicle. Also remember that its still just another alarm and if they want it they are gonna find a way to get around the security and take it. Ive seen alot of newer cars actually stolen by guys with a set of wheel dollies so they can just break in at a secure building. Youre setup is pretty straight forward though and would be fairly easy for any guy to set up on his own. My setup will require modifications to the fob ans such so it would be a bit more complicated

[jlmccuan]

Do sirens actually work? I have one installed and hooked to the prox alarm, vibration sensor as well as any sudden amp flow from clipping a wire. But I'm thinking if a guy is bold enough to steal a car, wouldn't he be willing to drag it up on a rollback, siren blaring, and just drive off with it? Short of setting up a "scorched earth" trigger, which I would consider, what else can you do?

[matty b]

fire and explosives lol. I dunno, you can only do so much to deter and prevent the theft of your car. Short of chaining it to the wall and have it surrounding by vicious pit bulls there just isnt anything you can do to stop it if they really want it. And like I said before if they really want it they will take it horns and all. Think of it this way, they jack the car up on tire skates and roll it down the street, open the hood and remove the battery cable. Now the car is making no noise and they can just put it on a tow dolly or a trailer and off they go. Back at their lair they can do a vin swap, chop it up for parts ect. So do the best you can and let it be. Youre one step ahaead cause they cant just bust the ignition and go. Hell they cant even pull the igniton switch connector off and jumper it. That reminds me of a story, my buddy left his keys in the house and I was in the back doing some electrical work so I had some wire. I bet him that I could have his car running before he could get his keys and come back outside. All I had to do was pull the connector off the switch and jumper the ignition to bat and tap the starter to start it up, took me all but 30 secs. Granted I could steal just about anything with my electrical knowledge but it isnt that hard on our early cars. Sucks the world is like that but it is and there isnt much you can do about it.

[matty b]

ok well disappointing news for my project. The alarm guy was not on the same page as me and after going over to his shop and spending an hour looking at every conceivable module including keyless entrys, alarms and door popper modules I came up empty handed. He gave me a 10 year old Prestige alarm that uses a single button for lock and unlock however I cant make it toggle between ignition and off without engaging the starter. What I mean is that whenever the car is turned on it would be necessary to at very least blip the starter before I could turn the car off. This is not acceptable for me so I will keep working on something. Sadly, its looking like I may just have to pony up the cash for the flaming river setup although I dont want to unless its a last resort. Its a great product but it just costs so damn much money that it kills me that I cant make a unit that does it myself. I think its more of an ego thing than anything else but Im getting to the point that its gonna be more time than its worth to do this. So at this point it sounds like jlmccuan's setup is gonna be the cheapest, easiest way to go about doing it. I looked around and found that the relay setup could be done for as little as 25 bucks total. Thats for the DEI 528t timer, a latch and two relays. Add the cost of the button and the RFID relay and youd be in it for about $120-$150. Ill continue to look for a solution be it a custom circuit or using exsisting parts and adapting them but at this point I think that I am stuck right now. Ill probably need an electronic engineer to help me make something that works properly SO if you are an EE drop me a line and we can talk.

[Tom 72RS/SS]

So, let me throw this out there.
What happens to the original ignition switch? Can that be hacked to start (steal) your car or do we just pretend it's not there because it no longer works the starter?
I like the setup that jlmccuan has produced (love to see a kit for that someday) but just curious about the stock ignition switch.

[monza]

So, let me throw this out there.
What happens to the original ignition switch? Can that be hacked to start (steal) your car or do we just pretend it's not there because it no longer works the starter?
I like the setup that jlmccuan has produced (love to see a kit for that someday) but just curious about the stock ignition switch.

You replace it with the 'button.'

I'm just waiting for you guys to finish all this planning so you can make me one and ship it .... it's getting close!

[DarkoNova]

You replace it with the 'button.'

I'm just waiting for you guys to finish all this planning so you can make me one and ship it .... it's getting close!

lol, me too.

And honestly, I'd rather get a billet aluminum "block off plate" and put the push button somewhere else.

Matt

[jlmccuan]

The ignition switch left the right size hole in the right spot in the dash, so I replaced the key switch with the push to start.

matty, the addition of the delay is what allows me to avoid blipping the starter when killing the ignition. Plus, it allows me to just turn on and off the accessories without starting the engine. Another alternative is to run the start signal in a series through the brake switch and neutral switch. Lots of ways to do it. Keep plugging away, you'll get it.

[matty b]

well Im back to talking with some electronics guys making a custom circuit. If I can get past one stumbling block of making the starter momentary and not requiring a press on and a press off then I will be able to have something that works exactly like the Flaming River setup that allows you to have ACC IGN and START so it will work exactly like a normal switch and not losing your ACC circuits. I let you guys know by the end of the week if it will work. If I can do it then I will have circuit boards printed and I can assemble them for guys that just want something ready to go. Otherwise Id be willing to provide the parts list and a CAD file of the circuit board and you can go at it alone. I refuse to give up on this project and need to finish it or myself(its that ego thing again). Stay posted

[Tom 72RS/SS]

The ignition on my 72 is on the column, no hiding it unless you replace the entire column with one from a 68 or older that had the ignition on the dash, right?

[monza]

The ignition on my 72 is on the column, no hiding it unless you replace the entire column with one from a 68 or older that had the ignition on the dash, right?

Sorry my bad, I was thinking dash mount for sure. You need a fancy new steering column! Other then that I'm sure you could rig a button on the column or a cover plate and go with a dash mount.

[sacarguy]

ok just talking out loud here

from what i see here if you already have the ignition on then press and hold for two seconds for the starter to fire the latched circuit will deenergize and you lose ignition when u release the button as the only weekenss to that design.

ok would it be ok include another timed relay to that if the button is held long enough to engage the starter it relatches the latched circuit

ie if you push the button once it turns on or off if its less then 2 seconds but if its pushed for more then two seconds at any time it will also reenergize the starter circuit and the latching circuit

that way if the ignition is already on from the first short pulse and you press the starter and hold it more then two seconds the second timed relay relatches the latched circuit as well and you dont just turn the latched circuit off when you lift the button and the only way the latched circuit turns off is a short less then two seconds pulse of the button

[matty b]

ok guys awesome news.. I have a PCB laid out and I will etch a few a build them to test. If all goes according to plan I should have at least 4 boards. They will function as follows. Press once=ACC, Press twice=ACC and IGN, Press and hold after first two steps and STARTER engages, Release button and it goes back to IGN and ACC. Press fourth time=turn off car. I have the abilty to also make an led blink in differnt patterns based on its current position or three different leds for each position. As a bonus its only like 3.5"x3" so its really compact. Im gonna make the boards tomorrow and test them thursday so hopefully I have some good news. This will be able to work with a standard alarm, an rfid alarm or all by itself. Any starter button can be used as well and if it has a light in it, that can be used as the status light. If they turn out good Ill package them up as a kit with all the wiring and relays ready to go so all you gotta do is hook up to the igniton switch wiring. I also might setup a connector for chevys so that you can depin the ignition switch connector and plug the wires into a different housing and thats it. That would be the most brainless way to do it and would take maybe 15 minutes to install. I am really really excited about this and I hope some of you guys are interested in this as a cheaper alternative to the unit made by flaming river. Stay tuned

[blissbsm]

I would be interested in that.

[Mike Holleman]

Matty, I'm very interested. I've been planning on this type of start system for months for my current build. A 65 El Camino on a Schwartz Chassis with an LS2/T56. I will not have door locks involved and my setup will be fairly simple. I have already pulled together most of the parts. Needless to say I've been following this post from the beginning.
How difficult would it be to have a redundent backup, so if the RFID fails, you can still fire the engine?

thanks for your efforts.
Mike Holleman

[matty b]

ok just talking out loud here

from what i see here if you already have the ignition on then press and hold for two seconds for the starter to fire the latched circuit will deenergize and you lose ignition when u release the button as the only weekenss to that design.

ok would it be ok include another timed relay to that if the button is held long enough to engage the starter it relatches the latched circuit

ie if you push the button once it turns on or off if its less then 2 seconds but if its pushed for more then two seconds at any time it will also reenergize the starter circuit and the latching circuit

that way if the ignition is already on from the first short pulse and you press the starter and hold it more then two seconds the second timed relay relatches the latched circuit as well and you dont just turn the latched circuit off when you lift the button and the only way the latched circuit turns off is a short less then two seconds pulse of the button

the problem with that is that the second latch wont be able to turn off with out holding the starter on again. Remember that since it wouldnt be triggered until the starter engages, the starter would engage right along with the second pulse to turn of that latch. There is no way to properly seperate them using analog logic. It is necessary to use digital parts in order to step through the sequence correctly.