Ebay Motors Editor Challenge Nova

[68Formula]

Global West a-arms, complete Hotchkis suspension and big 4 wheel Baer brakes.

They basically did everything they could to a stock subframe '72 Nova and still were out-slalomed and out braked by a '97 Silverado!

Now, I don't know what was done to that Silverado, but something seems totally amiss. Is the F-car and X-car setup just that bad that even a modern pickup has more potential?

I can't begin to begin to express my dissappointment.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

a-arms and hotchkis springs are a far cry from everything you can do to a stock sub.the brakes are no suprise.baers seem to do poorly when tested.i have a couple suspension pics one page back in this section.that might give you an idea of what you can do with a stock sub.

[68Formula]

If I found the right pics, that subframe didn't look very stock. Maybe I should've said "bolt on" parts.

Point is, they spent nearly $3k on these components and still have to worry about that truck in their mirror?

[spanky the wondermuffin]

that's $44.00 dollars worth of steel and a few bolt ons.the sub is indeed from a 68.I would call it mildly modified.i agree with the gist of your post,other than calling hotchkis suspenion pretty much it.if the same group put on one of the expensive aftemarket subs i doubt they would have done much better.did they tune?did they have 45psi in the tires and can't figure out why it is so nervous?anyone could duplicate my system cheaply.you need the tubular uppers,but you could use stock lca's.a little steel,a couple coil-over mounts and a set of coilovers is mostly it.i didn't come up with the system,it's used on about a million late model sportmans.they use a 2nd gen sub,but close enough.

[Mean 69]

Dude, I am really not trying to be mean, but can you please write in normal paragraphs, with modest punctuation? I have a really hard time trying to read your posts. Sorry, nothing personal, but I'd guess that others feel the same way.

M

Edit, BTW: When did you do the mods on your car? Lately, or before the track event years back in Phoenix? Just curious.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

after phoenix.you remember 15's with 225/60 rubber,no brakes,no power,and a 700r.hotchkis suspension.you can,of course,see it run and judge for yourself it's capibilities(or lack of) at any of the numerous track and open road events i participate in.the season starts soon,reckon i should add a few braces to my trophy shelf.

[LowBuckX]

I was realy not impressed with the build at all. Me being a Nova Man my self i take great pain in saying so.

First they did not use the widest possible tire. The used 235 45 17 when A 245/40 in front and 255/45 is an easy fit. Im using those sizes on 18inch rims myself.
That truck Im sure is running 295/55 or wider ...
Second they used a rear swaybar that may have hurt them.
They didnt try anything like Guldstrand mod or tall upper ball joints.
they just bolted it together and tought they had a guided missle

I also am crying FOUL on the whole event. I am a ebay addict (searching not buying) And am quite sure those Complete systems (hotchkis suspension baer track kit) where not found on ebay. Only if the Manufacturer did private auctions and that to me is not fair.

[Salt Racer]

...did they tune?...

There you go, that's the key (or lack thereof in this case).

Here goes my analogy again...

...When you build an high perf EFI engine, what would you do first? Planning, perhaps with target hp, fuel economy requirement, etc, while taking your budget into account.

Those Nova people had a plan of entering E-bay Editor challenge, but I don't think they had any specific plans on suspension. Furthermore, they'd skipped a couple of following procedures.

...Based on this plan, you'll select parts - pistons, cam, heads, intake, throttle body, injector size, etc. Would you randomly select parts without matching components? No. You select lobe profiles based on head flow, size the throttle body bore to your requirement, determine piston dish size to reach desired compression ratio, etc.

Did those Nova people do this when they picked up suspension parts? Probably not. Hotchkis system is no brainer, but did they even care to ask the techs at Hotchkis as far as what tire size, baseline alignment settings, etc would work best with their spring rates? Maybe, but not likely.

...After you built the engine, what would you have to do? Tuning - mapping fuel and timing table, trimming cold idle, etc. Would you expect good performance without proper tuning? I'm sure most people know this motor wouldn't be much better than a well-tuned $800 rebuilt engine without proper fuel and timing curve. Suspension isn't any different from engines. Tuning is important.

Did they corner weigh the car? There are ways to manipulate corner weights without having adjusters. Did they experiment with camber, caster, toe angle? Tire pressure and temperature? Brake pads properly broken in? Brake front/rear bias? Shock valving? The list goes on...


You can't just slap on a bunch of parts and expect your car to fly through cones without tuning, just like you wouldn't expect your engine to make good hp without proper calibration.

That is why Mean69 won't start selling 3-link until he tests everything on his own Camaro so he can offer a true tuned suspension system.
That is why CarlC's Camaro is so fast on road course with mostly bolt-on parts (ask how much time he and David Pozzi spent on tuning).
That is why the Camaro in latest SuperChevy only managed 0.81G on skidpad despite having 245/315 BFG KDs.
That is why Art Morrison's '55 pulled 0.94G with smaller 245/275 KDs.

Selecting spring rates and sta bar rates are tricky to some, but you certainly don't have to be an engineer to mess with alignment, tire pressure, etc. If you're serious about performance, don't overlook the tuning. Whether you have bolt-on suspension or fabricated suspension with killer geometry that has been analyzed to death, tuning could either make or break the combination.

[Matt]

Salt Racer, amazing post. Puts things into perspective.

-Matt (sorry I have nothing to add other than appreciation)

[spanky the wondermuffin]

perhaps when a 3-link car is finished,and sorted.we could arrange a test.i'd like to see the numbers on a 3-link/aftermarket sub car vs.leafs/stock(modified)sub.same driver,but i don't think spec tire would be right.if one guy has managed to put a 315 up front he should benefit from his work.same with tubs or flairs.buttonwillow in july?the attendance at the ncrc event will likely be light.

[PAI Racing]

Now I'm not an engineer or anything, but I do happen to race a leaf sprung Camaro, and I'd bet that if the leafs worked better than a 3 link with coils, modern Trans-Am cars would run leaf rear suspensions.

Outside of the bomber class at your local dirt track, where have you seen a fast leaf sprung car that is competitve with a car on coil overs? And I am talking real race cars, here not "CarlC vs. a Viper at Tracquest" or some crap like that. Real race cars that get paid money to win races don't run leaf springs because at the end of the day, all things considered, the three link with coil-overs is a better solution.

[MarkM66]

Not really adding anything technical. But I too was disapointed with how the Ebay Nova performed. Maybe the driver sucked.

[Salt Racer]

Yeah, driver ability makes huge difference too.

Sean,
I agree - ultimately 3-link is superior to leaf suspension given no space constraints and both systems are developed well. Otherwise I'd be swapping in a pair of leaf springs on my Riv, instead of modifying factory 3-link.

But I'd say leaf shouldn't be overlooked by those who are building street cars with factory floor pan and rear seats. It's nearly impossible to make good link suspension w/o some sort of cutting within the space limitation. And I'm pretty damn sure most people would be happy if their street cars corner as hard as your leaf-sprung race car. Hell, I'd be on top of the world IF my 3-link'ed car came even close to your car running on street radials.

That said, I wouldn't hesitate to cut up floors and design long-link 3-link for race cars and max-effort, barely-street-legal street/track cars.

It'll be really cool if a direct comparison test materializes. I'll try to be there if that happens, assuming it takes place in West coast.

[JamesD]

That is why the Camaro in latest SuperChevy only managed 0.81G on skidpad despite having 245/315 BFG KDs.

i saw this too, i was very surprised, he had just about everything you could do, yet it barely handled better than a stock late model camaro. heres the link to the specs on the camaro, and the test results:

http://superchevy-web.com/features/0502sc_69cam/

was this the result of a bunch of parts just being thrown together and an improperly tuned chassis. Also what exactly is invloved in tuning a chassi?

[Zefhix]

Haha...congrats to Robert, I didn't even put two and two together....he was at our 2004 Las Vegas Invasion for F-Body's and we gave him "Best-Of-Show". Car is virtually flawless cosmetically and the guy is really nice to boot.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

i would expect to get trounced.it would be interesting to see.i'm not proud.or tired.if someone has a 3 link kit that whoops up on my car i'll buy it.and be damn glad the guy did all the work for me.assuming minimal floor pan mods.if you don't mind cutting out the floor just build or buy a standard design rear clip and use off the shelf parts.absolutly a 3-link SHOULD be quicker,a $4-5000 sub SHOULD beat me.me,i wouldn't bet the farm on it.but i do hope for a breaktrough.design away,and test and develop until it's ready.negative scrutiny during development is not fair.let us know when we should start paying attention.i'm installing gw cat5 leafs for next year.pai racing-don't you have leafs/watts link?i'd like to see those head to head also.i also wonder how afco and landrum would perform.or hyperco composites with a watt's.back to the topic of this thread-i don't think that was a valid test,but it should serve as a warning.

[TonyL]

Spanky, Dude. Look at that paragraph. No capitals, no spaces between sentenaces. I don't even want to read what you wrote for fear of the headache I'd get.

Please. Please use some proper grammar in your posts. You have alot of good technical stuff to say, and I for one, want people to see it. Rather than dismiss what you wrote because of that.

Thanks.

[Salt Racer]

Jon,
I too have to wonder why '99 Z28 did so poorly, but Primedia actually does pretty good job making those testings as consistent as possible. All testings are done at the parking lot of Cal Speedway with timing equipments (no stop watch here). Every testing you've seen in rags up to this point was conducted by a single test driver, named Andrew Schear. He left Primedia sometime last year so they're currently training another driver. Hotrods to Hell has video clips of testing sessions of their Chevelle on their website, so does Art Morrison. As far as I can tell from those video clips, their testings are valid if not at least consistent enough to give you an idea for comparison purposes.

You're right - negative scrutiny during development stage is unfair, and that's exactly why people like Mean69 are busting their azz off so they can prove their designs as soon as possible. The same goes to you - I know your car's well developed and you're happy with it, but some new products just might change your mind when they are proven. All of us just don't know yet.

I'll try to be in SoCal when Mark gets his Camaro on track, and I hope to see your Camaro in action too sometime this year.

BTW, I have to agree with Mean69 and TonyL. I like reading what you have to say, but it would be better if you could make your posts a little easier to read.

...was this the result of a bunch of parts just being thrown together and an improperly tuned chassis. Also what exactly is invloved in tuning a chassi?

Ask anyone who has actually tested, or track'ed his car and see how much trouble he went through to get the combo work well. It's also evident in Mark Donohue's book - most of the cars he raced required significant amount of development.

To sum up what development is, it's all about setting up the car so that you can get the most out of available traction, and the car feels "right" so you can drive fast with good concentration. I can't possibly list everything you have to do to develop a car, so I'll just touch some basics.

The baseline has to be established first. The easiest way to do this is to attend OT events. Unless you drive like an 18-year old on crack at the risk of damaging properties (yours and others), killng someone, and spending sometime in prison, you'll NEVER find the limit of your car on street. Go to the track, learn how to drive first.

Once you get comfortable driving, you'll be able to tell what the car is doing. Is suspension bottoming out at any place on track? Does the car feel floaty? How does the transition feel? Any premature rear wheel lockup when braking hard? Understeer or oversteer, and where is it happening (entry, mid-corner, exit)? The list goes on...

Based on feedback you get from your car, adjust springs/sta bar/shocks, etc accordingly. If the car's bottoming out, you can either swap stiffer springs in, or raise ride height slightly. If the car feels floaty, try increasing shock rebound. If it feels bouncy during cornering, try decreasing bump valving (assuming you have double adjustable). If it feels sloppy in turn in, try slight toe-out. Mid-corner understeer? Try softer stabar front and/or more stabar rear. Make one small change at a time - it will teach you what the cause/effect(s) of each adjustment are. [EDIT] just some addition - basic rule of thumb. Steady state behavior is mostly controlled by roll/ride rate (springs, stabar), while transition behavior is controlled by shock valving.

Once you dial in all that stuff and you can drive fast consistantly and comfortably, do several hot laps, and check tire temp immediately afterwards to see if pressure and camber angle are good. Adjust pressure and camber accordingly, and go out again. You'll probably have to make more adjustments on springs/stabar again.

After going through above procedures several times, your car will be developed for you and for that particular track. The setting probably is good enough for street use, but if you really want to get the most out of your car, you'll have to do this for each track. Setting will also change depending on weather, also as your driving ability improves.

It's very involved (like I said, I just touched some basics, and I completely left out adjustments on geometry), and it will be somewhat costly with number of trips to the track. But that doesn't mean you can't do it yourself with enough time spent.