New Chrysler ads

[rob07002]

I've recently heard some new Chrysler radio ads and just saw a new TV ad the other day.

The ad's topic is about all the "firsts" Chrsyler is credited with. They give examples like retractable seatbelts, etc, not sure exactly all of them but then I heard them say they were the first to come out with the musclecar, or saying they invented the musclecar!

WHAT!!!!!!

Isn't it comon knowledge and generally accepted that the 1964 PONTIAC GTO was the first "musclecar" as popularly described back in the 60's? A mid-sized car with big cubes and power.

What are the new owners of Chrysler smoking?

GM should call their bluff on this one because it's borderline blasphemy.

[jaybee]

Mopar fanatics have long credited the Chrysler 300 with being the first musclecar, back in the 1950s.

[Damn True]

By that logic this should be the first:



Circa 1951

[nbecker]

Yeah i dont agree that the gto was the first, 409 bel airs came out before 64,sorry poncho guys.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

The ad's topic is about all the "firsts" Chrsyler is credited with. They give examples like retractable seatbelts, etc, not sure exactly all of them but then I heard them say they were the first to come out with the musclecar, or saying they invented the musclecar!

WHAT!!!!!!

Isn't it comon knowledge and generally accepted that the 1964 PONTIAC GTO was the first "musclecar" as popularly described back in the 60's? A mid-sized car with big cubes and power.

What are the new owners of Chrysler smoking?

GM should call their bluff on this one because it's borderline blasphemy.

I heard this on the radio for the first time today at work. As soon as I heard it, I thought to myself, WTF? Chrysler did not produce the first muscle car.

I thought it was commonly accepted that the GTO was the first true muscle car. Guess not?

It's pretty funny to see this posted after having the very same discussion just this afternoon, though.

[Zee]

I thought the point of a "muscle car" was the installation of a full size car's motor into a more affordable mid-size body. If that is the accepted definition, I believe the GTO may very will have been the first. If not the first, certainly the most successful. Otherwise, you just have a more powerfull full size car. Was not the 409 installed in the full size Impala? Same with the Letter cars and Hudsons. BTW, I am a Chevy guy at heart and like the Mopars too, so I have no real bias.

[MrQuick]

depends, a roadrunner is definately a muscle car by all definitions so I would think a C300 would fall into the same class. 1955, dual quad 331 hemi and the first to advertise 300 horse power.

I think some might be thinking Pony car.

[ProTouring442]

The Hudson was fast because it went around corners better than anything else, not so much because of the HP. Now the Olds 88 on the other hand was the smaller body with the big car engine...

In the end it's all bunk anyway, the 88 was definitely cool, and the early 300s were tough, but I'm not sure either was a muscle car.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[rob07002]

"A HISTORY OF FIRSTS. All automobile manufacturers build vehicles. But we create entirely new automotive categories. Chrysler invented the Muscle Car. The 1955 Chrysler C-300 model was America's first "Muscle Car." Chrysler also invented the SUV and minivan. Working with Orville Wright,(1) we pioneered wind tunnel development and ushered in the era of modern automotive aerodynamic design. When we developed the HEMI® engine in the 1950s, the technology proved so powerful that NASCAR banned it in 1965. We also were the first to put a modern radio in an automobile. And you know how you start your car? Chrysler invented the Key-Start Ignition System."


http://www.chryslerllc.com/aboutus/

From their website. They aren't claiming they contributed to creating what we commonly refer to as muscle cars or claiming they helped inspire an iconic era, they flat out say they "INVENTED" the muscle car.

I'm calling BS on this one. The C-300, 409, Max Wedge, Old 88, etc are all truly incedible cars and probably, probably did pave the way for what we now call muscle cars, but to claim that distiction solely for themselves is untruthful IMHO.

[High Plains Mopars]

What would you say came before this then? The '54 Vette with a six banger? They were after the sports car crowd. Flathead Fords were decent, but while they are V8 and being heavily modified by the aftermarket, they weren't performance oriented as a factory offering. The Hudsons were decent handling for the time, but still six bangers. Even the '55 chevy 210 coupe was pretty pedestrian at the time even though the small block chevy would go on to become an icon. (BTW, Mopar had the 350 cid engine before Chevy with the low deck big block in the late 50s. It would later turn into the 383 and 400.) Yeah, there were some supercharged straight 8s offered in the 30s, but coming from companies like Auburn, Cord, Dusenburg, and Packard, you could hardly say they were for mass consumption and they were installed in some very large, very heavy cars. I'm not sure when the Rocket Olds and nail head Buicks came out.

Mopar started building OHV Hemis in the early 50s with the Firedome Desotos, Firewpower Chryslers and Red Ram Dodges. However, with cubic inches in the high 200s and 2 bbl carbs, they were still pretty basic mills. By '55 they had dual quads on a large, (for the time) 300+ inch block V8 in a mid sized car (for the time) that swept the first three spots at the Daytona 500 and went on to dominate the sereis for the rest of the year. The Keirkhoff Chrysler team dominated enough that year that Nascar outlawed the combo the following year. Remember that full size cars of the era were Lincolns, Imperials, and Cadillacs, to the Dodge Lancer and Chrysler 300 were considered mid sized. That sounds pretty much like the term that would be attached to muscle cars a decade later and it did set off an ever escalating horsepower race among the big three that lasted 15 years and culminated in the muscle car era. Although not widely recognized, I'd say it created the genre.

I'd say the GTO was the first product marketed as a "muscle car" to a specific market segment, and certainly one of the most successful, but it by no means was the first to combine big cubic inches in a mid sized body.

[rob07002]

When tested by Motor Trend the C-300 did 0-to-60 mph in 10.0 seconds, and did the quarter mile 17.6 seconds at 82 mph. Not bad for a car that weighed just over 4,000 lbs.
Total production of the C-300 was 1,725 and there are 251 in the registry. The selling price as delivered was $5,175 including options, wire wheels, touch tone radio, power windows, power seats, rear speakers and tinted glass.


Tri-Power G.T.O. turned 107 mph in the quarter with an ET of 13.29. Zero to 60 mph averaged 5.7 seconds
Weight, lbs: 3470 with a sticker price between $3,200 and $3,400.


This can go back anf forth forever. It depends on your definition of "muscle car"

If you choose to believe any arguably "mid-sized" car with a powerful engine is considered a muscle car then I would argue that the hot rodders of the day invented muscle cars. Guys who were putting bigger motors into their duece coupes and the like predate the 55 C300 by several years.

One point not to overlook is that besides performance, a muscle car was priced affordable to the average consumer. With a sticker of over $5k a full 9 years before the 64 GTO which cost around $3200, the C300 seems well above that criteria.

As defined by Wikipedia:

Muscle Cars are high-performance automobiles made primarily in Detroit from 1964 to 1974. Car manufacturers placed large V8 engines in mid-sized cars, giving them quite startling performance and setting off intense competition between manufacturers to produce the most powerful and extreme machine. The 1974 OPEC Oil Embargo, stricter air pollution laws and insurance premiums killed most muscle car models, though they are actively collected and restored.

Although auto makers such as Chrysler had occasionally experimented with placing a high performance V-8 in a lighter mid-size platform, and full-size cars such as the Ford Galaxie and Chevrolet Impala had high-performance models, Pontiac usually gets credit for starting the muscle car trend with its Pontiac GTO, based on the rather more pedestrian Pontiac Tempest. Spearheaded by Pontiac division president John De Lorean, the GTO proved far more popular than expected, and inspired a host of imitations and a general trend towards performance, both in the true 'muscle car' class of intermediate vehicles, and also the smaller pony cars like the Ford Mustang, Plymouth Barracuda and AMC AMX, and more luxurious and expensive vehicles such as the Buick Riviera.

However, a large part of the appeal behind muscle cars was that they were mostly inexpensive models young drivers could afford. For instance, Chevrolet placed an extremely large 396 cubic inch (6.5 Liter) engine in its compact Nova. In today's terms this would be equivalent to attempting to make a Chevy Prism with a Corvette motor. Mopar also had several low-cost models, such as the Dodge Super Bee and Plymouth Roadrunner.

Between 1964 and 1970, Detroit auto makers were in competition for the bragging rights to the highest horsepower motor. Power numbers generally hit their peak in 1970; the Chevelle SS 454 from that year is generally considered to have had the highest advertised output, producing 450 horsepower from a 454 cubic inch (7.4 Liter) engine. By 1971, muscle cars began to fall out of favor and disappear, with Pontiac's Trans AM model being the last holdout by 1975.

While fast (sometimes extremely fast) in a straight line, most had primitive brakes and suspension (compared with modern vehicles and also European sports cars of the time), and tires which were inadequate to handle the acceleration and speeds the engines made capable. These inadequacies have all been to some degree addressed by after-market suppliers, of course.

[ProTouring442]

The Oldsmobile Rocket came out in 1949, 303ci & 135hp. The 88 sedan weighed in at 3714lbs. I don't know its performance numbers. The J-2 3X2bbl engine came out in 1957 and produced 300hp from a 371ci version of the Rocket.

In the end, who knows who had the "first" muscle car. The Chrysler 300s were beautiful, as were a lot of other cars back then. I wouldn't mind owning any of them, to tell the truth!

Besides, everyone knows that the first muscle car was the 1918 Series D Chevrolet. It sported a 3,000lb car pushed by a 288ci OHV V-8!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

What would you say came before this then? The '54 Vette with a six banger? They were after the sports car crowd. Flathead Fords were decent, but while they are V8 and being heavily modified by the aftermarket, they weren't performance oriented as a factory offering. The Hudsons were decent handling for the time, but still six bangers. Even the '55 chevy 210 coupe was pretty pedestrian at the time even though the small block chevy would go on to become an icon. (BTW, Mopar had the 350 cid engine before Chevy with the low deck big block in the late 50s. It would later turn into the 383 and 400.) Yeah, there were some supercharged straight 8s offered in the 30s, but coming from companies like Auburn, Cord, Dusenburg, and Packard, you could hardly say they were for mass consumption and they were installed in some very large, very heavy cars. I'm not sure when the Rocket Olds and nail head Buicks came out.

Mopar started building OHV Hemis in the early 50s with the Firedome Desotos, Firewpower Chryslers and Red Ram Dodges. However, with cubic inches in the high 200s and 2 bbl carbs, they were still pretty basic mills. By '55 they had dual quads on a large, (for the time) 300+ inch block V8 in a mid sized car (for the time) that swept the first three spots at the Daytona 500 and went on to dominate the sereis for the rest of the year. The Keirkhoff Chrysler team dominated enough that year that Nascar outlawed the combo the following year. Remember that full size cars of the era were Lincolns, Imperials, and Cadillacs, to the Dodge Lancer and Chrysler 300 were considered mid sized. That sounds pretty much like the term that would be attached to muscle cars a decade later and it did set off an ever escalating horsepower race among the big three that lasted 15 years and culminated in the muscle car era. Although not widely recognized, I'd say it created the genre.

I'd say the GTO was the first product marketed as a "muscle car" to a specific market segment, and certainly one of the most successful, but it by no means was the first to combine big cubic inches in a mid sized body.

[High Plains Mopars]

We've all seen the popular opinion that is espoused by wikipedia. Just because it is popular doesn't make it right or the best. Just like beta and vhs in the 70s or the blue ray disc stuff now.

Even if you take the narrow approach of of 64-74, big engine, mid sized body, it doesn't take into account that GM, Ford, and Mopar all had performance engines in mid sized cars available in 64. If GTO was first, how come everyone was at the party the same year? Product development was not that fast back then and if these cars weren't all in the works a decade prior, then none of them would have been there in '64. I'll admit it, there isn't much that is attractive about an early 60s mopar, but their 64 was just as fast as the goat. The GTO was just better marketing, in a better package, at the right time. Mopars were seen as grandpa cars and nobody in the 18-24 year old segment wanted anything to do with that.

Speaking of which, lets look at the market segments. The letter series Chryslers were being sold to 30-40 year old WW2 vets who wanted performance off the showroom floor and had money to burn. They didn't want to build cars, like they did with their flatheads prior to the war. The GTO was being sold to their children. I'd venture a guess that the majority of GTO buyers weren't driving, much less thinking about buying a new car in '55. Comparing them in price is apples to oranges because of the target audience.

In any case, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Heck, IMO the muscle wars started as soon as the second automobile manfacturer opened their doors and it has never really stopped. It just gets more technical as time passes.

[LowBuckX]

Your all wrong. The 64 Pontiac "TEMPEST" is known to be the first Muscle car.(GTO was a trim level)The 300 was a powerful car for its time but doent fit the mold as a muscle car. Muscle cars ar Mid size cars with large engines. the 300 is a large car and isnt even in the era commonly refered to as the Muscle car era.
Camaros and Mustangs where in the muscle car era but where concidered Poney cars. GTOs Chevelles Fairlanes are muscle cars. Impalas , Galaxies and what ever grandmother Mopar had in that size are not true muscle car just where available in that era. My reality


MOPAR was the first for very important thing In my mid. They where the first American car maker to sell out to an over seas auto maker. So doesnt Deiter own all of Mopars history too?

[go-fish]

Wow, touchy subject with the GTO crowd.
I would venture to say that the first muscle cars is the car that was first described as so by a magazine (i.e. Hotrod) or one of the manufacturers.
Here's a question that would settle the debate for me; Who coined the term and WHAT car were they talking about????
Seriously, anybody know?
I can see this turning into the "Definition of Pro-Touring" thread.

[68Formula]

"A HISTORY OF FIRSTS. All automobile manufacturers build vehicles. But we create entirely new automotive categories. Chrysler invented the Muscle Car. The 1955 Chrysler C-300 model was America's first "Muscle Car." Chrysler also invented the SUV and minivan. Working with Orville Wright,(1) we pioneered wind tunnel development and ushered in the era of modern automotive aerodynamic design. When we developed the HEMI® engine in the 1950s, the technology proved so powerful that NASCAR banned it in 1965. We also were the first to put a modern radio in an automobile. And you know how you start your car? Chrysler invented the Key-Start Ignition System."


http://www.chryslerllc.com/aboutus/

From their website. They aren't claiming they contributed to creating what we commonly refer to as muscle cars or claiming they helped inspire an iconic era, they flat out say they "INVENTED" the muscle car.

I'm calling BS on this one. The C-300, 409, Max Wedge, Old 88, etc are all truly incedible cars and probably, probably did pave the way for what we now call muscle cars, but to claim that distiction solely for themselves is untruthful IMHO.

Sorry Chrysler,

but the Suburban has been around a lot longer than any of your SUVs (did you have something in 1936?).

The Minivan? VW beat you by a couple decades too

I think the only thing they invented in these ads are the facts.

I guess if you're going to count your AMC takeover you might say you had the first crossover (Eagle: awd based wagon). Might be closer to the truth than any of your other statements.

Your ad writers need to be a better job at research.

[jeffandre]

In my opinion it rarely matters who's first in the long run as those that are first to market may have an initial surge in sales and popularity but they also have a history of problems inherent with having the first of any item. First is not always right or perfect, just first. It takes time to perfect what an assembly line can put out, which is at the heart of our hobby.

Spending the last 3 decades obsessing over cars that we the people have created, I figure anything that comes from a production line needs a lot of work to really be all that, so first does not cut it in my book, latest and greatest does. For a few of thousands of examples of how a nice product was improved by 1000%, see Bob's Cuda, Steve's Bad Penny, Prodigy's builds, etc. I could go on...

This would make for an interesting thesis project, showcasing the biggest inventions in our history and comparing the first usable products and their evolution. After all, without evolution you know where we would all be...still riding around on horses!!! (and you thought I was going to say that we would still be single-celled, didn't you?!)

[twosaturns]

Sorry Chrysler,

but the Suburban has been around a lot longer than any of your SUVs (did you have something in 1936?).

The Minivan? VW beat you by a couple decades too

I think the only thing they invented in these ads are the facts.

I guess if you're going to count your AMC takeover you might say you had the first crossover (Eagle: awd based wagon). Might be closer to the truth than any of your other statements.

Your ad writers need to be a better job at research.

I'll just jump in here because it's fun (love that banana!)
the mopar minivan ushered in a whole new format: FWD, economical people mover. the vanagon is a different catagory, it was never called a 'minivan'. the mopar is smaller and has heat in the winter, unlike the VW.
I call the wikipedia entry ignorant; the musclecar years are '64-'72, not '74. '72 is the cutoff year because they went to 'net' hp ratings in '73, federal big bumpers were introduced (though somehow the camaro was allowed to keep the small bumpers in '73) and compression ratios dropped. so today, most muscle car fanatics aren't fond of the '73 OR the '74 GTO, the cool but heavyandslow SS chevelle, the '73 GS 455 buick, etc.
the '64 GTO was considered a 'mid-size' (!) and the impala/bel air/biscayne was a 'full-size'. though now they both seem pretty big to us, they are different. pontiac was the 1st to put one of GMs big engines into a mid size offering. chevrolet didn't follow until the '66 SS396 chevelle (I'm not counting the limited run of 201 '65 Z-16 396 malibus).
the chrysler 300 letter series cars were cool, set some records, but they were high end luxurious cars. muscular, yes, but refined. 'muscle cars' were potent, cheap, loud, unrefined, unsafe monsters. like some people I know.
musclecars are more than 'who was the 1st w/ a big engine'. it was a time identified w/ audacious paint, stripes, graphics, chrome and cartoon characters. they were bold and brash and cool. who cares what chrysler says? they are just marketing people, and musclecar is a marketing term, not an official designation like mid size or sedan, so it all really doesn't matter. except that it's fun to discuss.
oh, and the mustang, camaro and firebird don't count; they are pony cars, smaller than musclecars. sorry.

[rob07002]

Yup, agree to disagree, High Plains.

The point I'm trying to make is that these ads come off soooo "matter of factly", like it's a positive hard truth like 2+2=4, when this is not the case.

There is a strong debate to some of there claims and for them to make these statements is very bold if not fradulent. It would like me claiming to be the current home run champ, why not I played little league....

I'm mean, hell why not say you invented the wheel itself and fire while your at it.

I love Mopars and hope to one day own some Challengers, Cudas and RoadRunners. So this is not a Mopar bash, just calling the current leadership's and marketing guru's at Chrysler's bluff.

[68Formula]

Sorry, see the next post.