SEMA Action Alert - CA

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Just to warn you, New York state is trying to follow closely in our footsteps...

We already have this law?

In New York State, anything newer than 1977(?) has to be inspected for safety and emissions every single year. You guys have it made with the bi-annual inspections/smog that you've got currently.

[EFI69Cam]

How exactly can you require a car to be smog legal that was not built in the era of emmisions standards? Would the guy in the big block '69 Chevelle have to put Catalyatic Convertors on his duel exhaust?

That's about the dumbest sh*t I ever heard in my life. Who are these idiots?

Duel exhaust, is that when they fight each other ?

(jk)

[CarlC]

Nah, the dumbest thing about about the whole smog deal is that it totally disregards improvements made by the owner.

For example, if you put a non-factory carburetor on that is not CARB exempt, it's illegal. It does not matter if it runs cleaner and uses less fuel.

Another idiotic law is the engine swap requirement. Legally, if I put a 2002 LS1 engine in my car I have to use every smog related feature used in the 2002 car. Nevermind that it's 100 times cleaner than the original engine after I gut out the ever-necessary gas tank vapor canisters, I have to use EVERYTHING to be legal and it must pass the 2002 LS1 smog test. Dumb Dumb Dumb.

To me the smartest thing California, and any other state, could do for the automotive enthusiast and the taxpayer is to make it a tailpipe-only test based on the year and smog requirements for original chassis. Pass the sniffer, and see-ya-later.

[WS6]

That's about the dumbest sh*t I ever heard in my life. Who are these idiots?

They're California. Don't you know the world revolves around California and everything they do?

I could never live in California. The weather isn't that nice.

I have to agree with Carl though. My thought are exactly the same thing. It only matters what is coming out the tailpipe, so why not simply test that?

[toxicz28]

We already have this law?

In New York State, anything newer than 1977(?) has to be inspected for safety and emissions every single year.

Ahh! You must move to the north young man! The closest thing to a smog check up here, for now, is '96 and newer gets plugged in to make sure there is no SES light. No sniffer, not at all.

[nancejd]

I wouldn't mind this kind of stuff so much if all the legislators and people that support this junk volunteered to have their cars crushed first.

[MonzaRacer]

OK,
Here goes. Any car with OBD II (Onboard Diagnostics Second Generation) gets a pass IF the SES light is off AND all of the "monitors" hhave passed.
Reason is that the second generation version is set up to turn the light on IF the system checks and sees the results screwed up at 1 anad a 1/2 times the FTP standards.
They are assuming that with EO parts or stock parts that the car isnt emitting any poloution into the atmosphere.
Now this is also the emissions from the fuel storage system too.
So if you trash the vapor recovery your emitting unburned hydrocarbons into the atmosphere WHICH DOES MAKE SMOG WORSE, and the several gallons of gas lost every year by evaporation does amount to a lot in some respects.
I/M 240 results in a car being in a closed sealed booth and running for 240 seconds in a test pattern so as to ascertain if the complete car is emitting raw fuel.
Honestly there is nothing wrong with emissions devices in some respects, its been proven that cats (if properly matched) do not hurt performance. An EGR valve in the grand scheme of things does nothing more than help NOX production and quell spark knock to a point allowing the engine to retain spark timing advance hence making it more efficient.
Now I have asked several people who should care this question,,,What iff you could buy a custom vapor recovery/carbon canister, that minimally effects the looks and doesnt in anyway hurt performance,,, would you purchase one and maintain the system if it got you through a test station with a pass and providing your engine passes a pipe sniffer test?
The system doesnt hurt performance and unless your car has a fuel soaked carbon canister or millions of vacuum leaks IT ACTUALLY HELPS WITH MILEAGE.
A friend of mine built a street rod from his wrecked last year Camaro and wondered why his mileage went down 4 mpg when the car was so much lighter.and he couldnt get the check ngine light to stay off even with tons of retweaking.
so I went over and ask where certain lines went and he just looked at me like I ask what the composition of the moon was.
So since the car had the Camaro tank in it and the complete harness installed, I simply took the canister and solenoids and hid them on the car and hooked up the emissions (only thing not on car at that point was cats) I pulled out my new Snap-On Solus and cleared the codes, chased a few bad grounds and installed a simulator for the rear O2(all the rear o2 does is make sure the cat is there and functional) and tada after about 3 days the car had passed ll "monitor tests" and the light was out.
All for 5 lbs of parts that raised his mileage up 3 mpg(I figure his spirited driving got the best of him) AND he had no lights on and no emissions parts missing or inoperative.
And his car even dang near passed a tail pipe test with out cats.
He called Random Technologies and got 2 new 3 way cats for it.
We fabbed up some heat shields and removed his crappy stainless "streetrod mufflers" (ie glass packs) and low and behold the car sounded meaner.
Now to let you understand some things. Evap simply means it uses a vacuum or small air pump to pull the hot fumes from the tank into an activated charcoal canister, then when it assumes the tank/fule/system is cool enough,, it closes. Then after you start the car it uses a small amount of engine vacuum to pull the unburned fuel in and burns it.
Now as your engine starts it, if it has heated O2 sensors, they get up to the required 600 or degrees real fast, and the computer takes over managing fuel by reading the amount of air (either by MAF or speed density)ingested, injects the computed amout of fuel required to run the engine at the controled or requested rpm, sniffs the outcoming exhaust and thinks a nano second ,does some math, calles a friend the injector driver and says "hey less fuel dummy" and the injector does this. No all the while the ignition is sparking when told and that part of the sytem is listening to its bug (the knock sensor) to see if anybody is going where they shouldnt ,(ie is the fuel getting a chance to ignite too soon)and if its going ok its not doing anything but if it hears something it does the two steps back one step forward, all the while it is listening/timing a pause between the retards or advances (ok here is what happens if the ign/computer arent getting any knock it keeps adding timing a degree or 2 at a time till it sees this then the knock strategy comes in and pulls out some timing, and waits listening and counts, then when that timmer is over it listems to the knock sensor more closely, then if its ok advances the timing again if it still hears knock it pulls more timing out.All doing this and keeping the engine perfectly advanced at all times/loads.
Now for the more EPA minded cars the knock sensor and computer calibration add just enough old burn gasses in to "cool" or dilute the mixture so as to NOT create NOX (Oxides of Nitrogen) which causes a lot of traffic smog problems.
And remeber this thing is doing this on the order of 30 or 40 times a second constantly correcting your fuel ,spark and evap/EGR to optimum settings.
Yess they could get more aggresive with the WOT tuning but this stuff is for the masses not Joe Hot Rodder.
This is why the LS7 is a 11/12 second screamer AND gets good mileage AND passes a sniffer test.
BUT to get back to it if you could add on a $250 to $500 "kit" and get better mileage (results may vary due to driver technique)and keep unburned fuel in the car to be used,,,would you buy it?
And if the car community would take it upon themselves to make thier cars cleaner and prove it periodicly (I agree the system has flaws and costs too much but,,,, till a smart non politition gets ahold of it ,,,) then MAYBE some of these government types might let some of the crap go.
Or if someone won the lottery and ran a calss action suit against one or more companies that pollute and use emission credits to get by, then maybe we wouldnt have to work so hard to protect out favorite hobby/toy/sickness.
To be honest as a certified tech I know just how lame the systems of yesteryear where and how honestly simple and effective they current ones are if they are installed/maintained properly.
No the evap system gets even simplier if you use a returnless system like newer cars do as it isnt returning hot fuel into a cold tank to make more fuel vapor.
But they did a study some where using all of the registered cars, in California, 15 yrs old or newer ,and figured them putting out (in theory) right at the spec max out put for a year and then figured one of the dirtiest industrial plants in California (government registered specs as they had to be tested so they knew how many credits they would need)smoke stack out put and just measured the same components that came out of the stacks (ie if your car isnt emitting polybutylhexapropalene or some such crap into the air you may not need some polution credits)that CO,CO2,HC,NOX,O2 (ie 5 gas )and the factory was produceing approximately 1700times all of those 15yrs or newer CA registered cars per day, worth of polution, not including the other noxious polutants.
But if they crushed approx 300 cars per day , they didnt have to do anymore clean up,,,and they get to keep the funds from the srapping.
Now we all used to say that fine if they have old cars with nice, useable parts let us salvage them and any good useable restorable cars rather than waste the money/emissions already invested in production of that car/part.
But no thats to simple and smart and makes too much sense.
Wasnt it HotRod or PHR one one of them that saved a 67 Camaro from the crusher that requires less than $100 to get into emission spec for late 80s spec,,, without cats?
still I think if we as a community did more to make a point that we are helping/protecting the environment it might get noticed.
Oh well.
Lee

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Ahh! You must move to the north young man! The closest thing to a smog check up here, for now, is '96 and newer gets plugged in to make sure there is no SES light. No sniffer, not at all.

Since 2005 all OBDII ('96 +) vehicles receive the "plug-in" diagnostics to make certain there are no codes. There is no sniffer test. This is nice, beause with programs like HP Tuners, one can remove entire systems from their car (e.g. rear '02 sensors) and "pass" the OBDII test.

'95 and older (I think to '77) receive the old-school sniffer test, which they've had as far back as I can remember (although, that's not too far back, haha!)

I wish L.I. would adopt northern NY automotive legislature

[Damn True]

That's about the dumbest sh*t I ever heard in my life. Who are these idiots?

Liberals Tony. They are liberals.

[MrQuick]

Right now the cut off looks like it will be 1973 and newer. Still working on them. Lets see how SEMA does.

[CraigMBA]

Right now the cut off looks like it will be 1973 and newer. Still working on them. Lets see how SEMA does.

That's a change from existing law where the cutoff is 1975.

[jknight16]

...All the while, just one state away in Arizona, the state government recently set its own precedent of sorts by exempting all vehicles 15 years and older (on a rolling basis) that have collector car or limited use insurance policies. Went into effect at the end of April 2007, and completely saved me, since prior to this any vehicle 68 or newer had to get smogged.

Now I just have to find a decent priced collector's insurance policy for someone under the age of 25...

[6'9"Witha69]

Now I just have to find a decent priced collector's insurance policy for someone under the age of 25...

Yeah, when my buddy was at the Phoenix UTI in 2000 he worked for the state smog station near there. He told me he had to fail a '70 Super Bee over and over. Try as the owner might, he couldn't get it to pass. As Californians we thought smog laws were crap then, that opened my eyes a little.

And yes, the tree huggers are trying to make everyone drive a prius or use electric trains. We need to resist this type of legislation but as MonzaRacer said we still need to do what we can, otherwise we become as closeed minded and fanatical as the people we are fighting.

[toxicz28]

Since 2005 all OBDII ('96 +) vehicles receive the "plug-in" diagnostics to make certain there are no codes. There is no sniffer test. This is nice, beause with programs like HP Tuners, one can remove entire systems from their car (e.g. rear '02 sensors) and "pass" the OBDII test.

'95 and older (I think to '77) receive the old-school sniffer test, which they've had as far back as I can remember (although, that's not too far back, haha!)

I wish L.I. would adopt northern NY automotive legislature

The reason you get the sniffer on the older cars, is the little "NYMA" on your registration. I'm sure, one day it will be state wide emissions testing. They've only been talking about it since the mid '90's.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Understood. But using the death of six million innocent Jews as an equivlent to some slippery slope "The Government is out to get Us" argument by making smog inspections annual instead of bi-annual on cars that are likely the biggest contibutors to the problem is way out of bounds.

can we keep this thread as non-political as possible ?

[CraigMBA]

can we keep this thread as non-political as possible ?

Exactly how is me getting offended because somebody (who writes for a living and should know better) compared the murder of six million innocents to a change in smog inspection from bi-annual to annual being political? I understand the point he was trying to make; the way he made it was offensive and I said so. FWIW, I'm not Jewish.

Frankly, this thread IS political.

You can make your case to the politicians involved that you think the smog testing shouldn't apply to your special interest (limited use) car, or you can be alarmist and just make a stink and watch them change the law with or without you.

In many areas of the state, we are out of compliance with the Federal Clean Air Act and the state is OBLIGATED UNDER LAW to get into compliance. This is not an attack on the aftermarket or the enthusiast car, but we will get sawed in half by putting the big old stall on this one. Federal law is not on our side and not likely to be changed with the Dems in congress.

[CraigMBA]

I wouldn't mind this kind of stuff so much if all the legislators and people that support this junk volunteered to have their cars crushed first.

For petes sake!

These cars are ALREADY GETTING TESTED.

The change in the law will require new cars to get tested LESS FREQUENTLY and older cars to get tested MORE FREQUENTLY.

[EFI69Cam]

Exactly how is me getting offended because somebody (who writes for a living and should know better) compared the murder of six million innocents to a change in smog inspection from bi-annual to annual being political? I understand the point he was trying to make; the way he made it was offensive and I said so. FWIW, I'm not Jewish.

Frankly, this thread IS political.

You can make your case to the politicians involved that you think the smog testing shouldn't apply to your special interest (limited use) car, or you can be alarmist and just make a stink and watch them change the law with or without you.

In many areas of the state, we are out of compliance with the Federal Clean Air Act and the state is OBLIGATED UNDER LAW to get into compliance. This is not an attack on the aftermarket or the enthusiast car, but we will get sawed in half by putting the big old stall on this one. Federal law is not on our side and not likely to be changed with the Dems in congress.

Actually Steve's use of that quote is quite appropriate. The path to totalitarianism is not a overnight change, but a slippery slope. Once a line is crossed there is no going back. SEMA is doing for the old car hobbyist what the NRA does for gun owners, they are keeping us off that slope.

Many intellectuals from the cold war era are warning us that radical environmentalism is even more of a danger than communism was.
We do need to be mindful of the impact of our actions on others, but that is not something I want the goverment doing for me.

[Jim Nilsen]

I would like to give all of the politicians involved in voting for the law an older car in excellent shape or better yet give it to one of their relatives. I think this would cause them to have to face the problem on a more personal and real level. When they have a perfectly good car that will cost them some personal grief they might get a taste of their own hypocracy.

Education is something most of them need in fields that they only really have opinions that are confused by false facts from others who only got their info from opinions and surveys that are biased. If they could just tax stupidity imagine how much they would get /have to pay?

[Steve1968LS2]

Exactly how is me getting offended because somebody (who writes for a living and should know better) compared the murder of six million innocents to a change in smog inspection from bi-annual to annual being political? I understand the point he was trying to make; the way he made it was offensive and I said so. FWIW, I'm not Jewish.

Frankly, this thread IS political.

You can make your case to the politicians involved that you think the smog testing shouldn't apply to your special interest (limited use) car, or you can be alarmist and just make a stink and watch them change the law with or without you.

In many areas of the state, we are out of compliance with the Federal Clean Air Act and the state is OBLIGATED UNDER LAW to get into compliance. This is not an attack on the aftermarket or the enthusiast car, but we will get sawed in half by putting the big old stall on this one. Federal law is not on our side and not likely to be changed with the Dems in congress.

Man, just let it go... what happened in WWII is a fact of history and it's a perfectly valid analogy.

If CA wants to be more in compliance they should do something that matters like go after industry and big rigs. Going after a relatively small number of hobbiest cars and such is a waste of time in the big picture of what pollutes in CA. I see this new law as more of a "feel good" revenue generating deal. Now they get to charge fees every year and the improvement to air quality will be zilch.