Front Clip Question: Need Your Help

[Young Gun]

the car is going to be something i can cruse around it but i want it to handle pretty well too, i would prefer not to have to spend any more than necessary in order to make it handle well, so i guess if i had to choose a number it would be someplace between 4 and 6gs

[6'9"Witha69]

Replacement factory frame $500.00
Smoothing and Podercoating $500.00
Tubular uppers and lowers $1,142.98
Good Front Springs $169.95
Good Shocks (2) Bilsteins $195.90
Brakes (Kore3) $900.00
Front Sway Bar $215.95
ATS 670 Gear Box $515.00
GMod Free
TOTAL $4,139.78


And this will handle as well or better than just about every aftermarket clip setup out there. There are variations in component selection to increase or decrease cost, but this is a very cost effective solution. For a street car it is overkill and I doubt on a track you will be able to utilize it to it's fullest without considerable experience. I think most of the front clip is for a packaged solution/clean look. For a budget and performance, you still can't beat the possibilities offered by the stock steel and the aftermarket support.

[hotrdblder]

there is no way a stock sub with dse coil over or ats coil conversion will outhandle an aftermarket front clip, it may out handle what most of us throw at it but without going to coil overs, it will be limited, and if you cannot do it yourself it will cost damn near the same price as a aftermarket clip

[TitoJones]

there is no way a stock sub with dse coil over or ats coil conversion will outhandle an aftermarket front clip, it may out handle what most of us throw at it but without going to coil overs, it will be limited, and if you cannot do it yourself it will cost damn near the same price as a aftermarket clip

I missed this somehow.

Why is not possible for a stock frame to out handle an aftermarket one?

Did you ever look at the actual geometry figures posted by DSE with their $7K frame? Last I check our AFX spindles had more camber gain per inch of suspension travel than they did, less overall bumpsteer than they did, and more caster. I can get it done for about $700.

I really want to go head to head with a DSE frame vs our Chicane-LM frame and put this one to rest once and for all. On paper we have already out done it.

Tyler

[josh@scotts]

give us a call at scotts i know we can accomodate you 805-485-0382, and compare are quality with other after market front ends, for the money you cant buy a better front end hands down!!

[hotrdblder]

I missed this somehow.

Why is not possible for a stock frame to out handle an aftermarket one?

Did you ever look at the actual geometry figures posted by DSE with their $7K frame? Last I check our AFX spindles had more camber gain per inch of suspension travel than they did, less overall bumpsteer than they did, and more caster. I can get it done for about $700.

I really want to go head to head with a DSE frame vs our Chicane-LM frame and put this one to rest once and for all. On paper we have already out done it.

Tyler

DO IT!!!
maybe i should not say out handle, i should say the clip cars have a way better feel to them when driving hard on the street, way more comfortable driving hard, to a pro driver you may be right the stock clip will be as fast or faster but for the average joe if you blind folded him and let him drive both cars hes gonna pick the clip car everytime.

[novanutcase]

Replacement factory frame $500.00
Smoothing and Podercoating $500.00
Tubular uppers and lowers $1,142.98
Good Front Springs $169.95
Good Shocks (2) Bilsteins $195.90
Brakes (Kore3) $900.00
Front Sway Bar $215.95
ATS 670 Gear Box $515.00
GMod Free
TOTAL $4,139.78


And this will handle as well or better than just about every aftermarket clip setup out there. There are variations in component selection to increase or decrease cost, but this is a very cost effective solution. For a street car it is overkill and I doubt on a track you will be able to utilize it to it's fullest without considerable experience. I think most of the front clip is for a packaged solution/clean look. For a budget and performance, you still can't beat the possibilities offered by the stock steel and the aftermarket support.

I would go this route if I was in your shoes!!!!

John

[TitoJones]

give us a call at scotts i know we can accomodate you 805-485-0382, and compare are quality with other after market front ends, for the money you cant buy a better front end hands down!!

We are trying to get a comparison going with your front end. Bring the tech and loose the marketing vomit.

What makes your frame better than others in your same field? I would lump your frame in with Chris Alston Chassisworks, Heidts, Fatman, and Total Cost Involved. These companies are chrome plating, street rod manufacturers trying to cash in on the Pro-Touring hype and style, but don't really bring the hard data to back up their claims.
Be like AME, DSE, and SC&C and bring in some tech to this discussion.

Tyler

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

[6'9"Witha69]

DO IT!!!
maybe i should not say out handle, i should say the clip cars have a way better feel to them when driving hard on the street, way more comfortable driving hard, to a pro driver you may be right the stock clip will be as fast or faster but for the average joe if you blind folded him and let him drive both cars hes gonna pick the clip car everytime.

Maybe I've driven mine too long, but I would pick the factory car every time!

BTW, I don't think comparison driving should be a blind folded contest.

[hotrdblder]

lol, have you driven a dse or 21st century car? i have driven a dse speed 3 equipped 1st gen, then directly after drove a 21st century equiped car, i am no race car driver, however i would pick the clipped car everytime, felt way more comfortable driving the clipped car harder, it felt like it wanted more, meaning it was easier to push harder, i am sure the camber gain, bumpsteer etc is similer to a well built stock sub, however it did not feel that way driving aggressive.

[Steve Chryssos]

Current "on paper" geometry comparisons ignore important aspects such as front steer vs. rear steer as well as torsional rigidity of stock stamp & weld 40 year old frame rails vs DOM tubular frame rails.

Assuming that both designs offer equal grip, a GOOD aftermarket clip still wins because it is easier to drive hard. By eliminating the pitman arm, the idler arm, the center link, and pointing the steering arms forward, the GOOD aftermarket clips practically drive themselves. "On Paper" bump steer, camber gain and caster comparisons fail to tell the "Front Steer" story. Also, I hate driving my car on paper because they don't make large enough sheets. And paper can be very slippery which is dangerous. There are very good reasons why almost all modern cars are front steer. It's okay to admit that GOOD aftermarket clips have their place, because there is still one hugely important difference:

Given that both designs work extremely well--and they do, the difference comes down to money. You can build up an excellent handling stock clip in stages, while the aftermarket clips require an up front, lump sum expenditure. If you can afford the one time, lump sum tin for a GOOD aftermarket clip, do it. You won't be disappointed. Also, if you will be paying labor to cut & weld an OE clip for coil over conversion, GOOD aftermarket clip can quickly become less expensive.

If, on the other hand, you can only afford to buy bits and pieces in stages and will be doing the work yourself, then upgrade a stock clip. They haul ass and cost less substantially less--especially if you avoid coil over conversion. Start with ATS spindles. They are the single most important upgrade to a factory clip. And they are the single most developed part available for factory clips. I'll take coil springs over coil overs any day of the the week.

Given your requirements, your options are wide open. It boils down to whether you have $4-$6K today or in stages. Just don't let anyone tell you that GOOD aftermarket clips are a waste.

the car is going to be something i can cruse around it but i want it to handle pretty well too, i would prefer not to have to spend any more than necessary in order to make it handle well, so i guess if i had to choose a number it would be someplace between 4 and 6gs

[joeelutz]

Hello...New to board, but I have to mention that I just bought a 67 Camaro with a Martz subframe iwith the rally/road race package and LOVE IT. The handling far surpassed my expectations. The design and workmanship are also very nice.

[jeremy30thz]

I have the new one from TCI on my 69 Camaro and like it lots

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

I have the AME frame and its so next level..