Help with brake system

[jknight16]

Ok guys, despite my best efforts to find the answers I need in previous discussions, I have been unable to do so. I've never bent or flared a brake line in my life so I'm kindof a dummy when it comes to engineering a brake system. Sorry in advance for the length...

My 69 Camaro has factory power front discs with stainless brake hoses and factory lines, which I think I will be able to retain. Now...I recently put a 9" rear from a Lincoln Versailles and retained the disk brakes from that car with all new rotors, pads, calipers, etc. Also, I had new stainless brake hoses made up to run from the calipers to the rear hard lines. Oh, and I already have the proportioning valve to splice into the front-to-rear line.

So the questions are:
A) Do you guys think my 1 1/8" bore factory master cylinder will get the job done, or if not, which MC do you think would work. Is there any reason I should be looking at 7/8"? wilwood?

B) Does the factory distribution block just below the master cylinder need to be removed from the system?

C) I'm thinking I will buy a front-to-rear line from inline tube (with the wilwood proportioning valve spliced in), and then fabricate by own rear axle lines, does this seem appropriate or is there a better or easier way?

Even with the drum brakes, this car really stopped quite well for a street car, so I'm not looking to do the hydroboost at this juncture (car has manual steering so would be opening a whole new can of worms on that one). The money really isn't a huge issue here, so if it's a whole new power booster and MC that I need, so be it. I just want to get it right and have the car stop as well or better than it did before.

Thanks guys!

[69TAPoser]

I'll take a stab at a couple. I have a 7/8" master from Wilwood. The only reason I have the 7/8" is because I am NOT running power brakes and the smaller diameter will help increase line pressure. So if you are running power brakes I do not think you need to go 7/8." If you are buying a Wilwood master, the Wilwood tech line will help you get the right size based on your setup.I am also running a Ford 9" rear and spoke with Inline tube this morning. They recommend getting the rear axle lines straight and bending them to fit, which is what I plan to do. Because I am not running power brakes, the other option of runnning long soft lines is not the best option for me (I am looking for the best pressure I can get and the soft lines expand). So I am doing exactly what you stated in letter C.Not sure about the dist block with power brakes. I will be running one with manual brakes.Phil

[jknight16]

Thanks for your input Phil, I appreciate your help. My hope is that bending and flaring the rear axle lines will not be too difficult, but it seems that I was having difficulty communicating with inline tube regarding the front-to-rear line. I guess I'll have to call them and explain again what I'm looking to get.

Ugh..Anyone know a shop in Phoenix where I can just drop this off and pay to have them run the brake lines?

[Goatman]

Pretty much anyone can do it. All you need is a flare tool (they're as cheap as $15) and a small line bender (around $45). Pretty much any solid, round object you can bend lines on, as long as you don't kink them.

[MonzaRacer]

Well as a tech I for one will NEVER buy another "cheap" 15 dollar flaring tool.
Spend a decent amount on one say up to 50 bucks and practice,practice practice as doing double flares area bitch and if you get it crooked or split the flare you have a leak.
As for making the lines I have never had any trouble using preflared straight lines, admittedly sometimes it takes a little creativiety to make a slightly longer line fit but saves headaches too.
I for one found a multi size tubing bender for 10 bucks at local True Value bargain bins(these are 2 handles with grooves and mine will do a 180 degree ubend with no problem. This tool can be fairly cheap, I actually bought my flaring kit from Matco tools(www.matco.com).
I actually have no problem using the brass union(the ones that the flares seat into not compression unions)
Also if anyone needs to repair a line on the road or is in a tight spot and doesnt have enough line to flare in a pinch.
you can usually get the steel compression fittings from NAPA (royal Brass is only manufacturer that I knop and they do most of the Weatherhead (NAPA) brass fittings)are theonly thing legal and safe as the burst preasure on those are unreal, something like 8000-10000 psi for 3/16 units.
I was afraid I would be fired for not using the brass compression fittings in brakes(highly unsafe and illegal) as the best preasure of the brass ones can hold is 500 psi.
We had steel ones tested and in an undertorqued situation they never failed under 15000 psi (actually peaked nad leaked only at 18900 and then a retorque was all that was needed)and if you have that much brake pressure your rubber lines are only rated for 10000 psi (generally according to my reading the stainless hoses are rated in the 18000-20000 burst as a result of the materials).
Anyway if you run 4whl disc you need the 4whl disc master cyl, if the car had 3/16 rear lines your good and if the rear lines were 1/4 in you will need to replace them as you need a quick pressure rise not lots of volume to run disc. you may also need 2psi check valves tokeep the system ready to function with out a low pedal.
And a good adjustable prop valve is essential.
On the Camaro if you have 4whl disc use a Corvette master cyl and it will fit your car easier.
good luck
Lee

[jknight16]

Thanks a million Lee. Luckily my girlfriend's dad is a technician as well so he's volunteered to let me use his high $$ flaring tools and benders, so hopefully that shouldn't be a problem.

With regards to the master cylinder, thanks for your input on that mystery, I'll get the corvetter master cylinder, any recommendations for a source?

I'm not sure what size the lines are in the rear, so I'll have to check that out.

Should it be 3/16 line all the way back from the master cylinder?

I got a wilwood knob-style prop valve, but I'll look into getting some check valve(s). Do the check valve/valves get spliced in on the line from the master cylinder to the back?

Jeff K.

[6'9"Witha69]

1. You need a Disc/Disc master as Lee stated. Vette ones work well or you can call wilwood.
2. You will also need to swap distribution blocks as the disc/drum block has a built in pressure regulator for the rear lines (available from inline tube).
3. You need to replace the factory 3/16 rear line with 1/4.
4. Use hard line on the rear end, as little hose in the brake system as possible.
5. The residual pressure valves are installed between the MC and dist block.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

[David Pozzi]

Some of those Ford rear axles use very large caliper pistons, like around 3". You may be able to turn the pressure down enough with an adjustable proportioning valve but the extra volume required by oversized rear pistons can cause excessive pedal travel. If you have a low pedal after the install, look into that.
David

[jknight16]

Ok, well the guys at inline tube proved to be extremely helpful, as usual. Interestingly they said that my disc/drum master cylinder should still work, but we are bypassing a separate hold off valve (pressure regulator) that came with factory disk brake cars with a set of short lines that inline tube makes, they go straight to the distribution block from the MC. Then I am replacing the rear lines with 1/4" line that I have to bend and flare myself, in addition to splicing in the new proportioning valve.

According to those guys, the disc/drum distribution block can be reused as well. Further, he said that a residual pressure valve wouldn't be necessary...so I'm following Inline's advice but am concerned by the conflicting information I've gotten, cause I trust you guys' input since most of you have been there and done it too.

David, thank you for your input. If I do find that I have a low pedal after bleeding the system, is that something that would likely be remedied by using a larger bore master cylinder? Or one designed for disc/disc applications? Jeff