Mule rollcage - is the backseat usable?

[mikesz]

I'm starting to collect ideas for a cage to put in my '67 Camaro. The car will primarily be a street car with some Track use. I'm looking at the April 2002 PHR where Mark Stielow detailed the install of the cage in the Mule. He states "Having a removable crossbar on my rollcages is nice, so when the car is not being used for competition, I have full access to the interior." He never actually says this is to allow rear seat passengers though. Does anybody have any more insight into this?

Mike

[Bowtie racing]

And where does seatbelts mount ?

[BonzoHansen]

I wouldn't want my rear passengers' heads to hit a roll bar.

[mikesz]

I wouldn't want my rear passengers' heads to hit a roll bar.

Which is why I am asking this question. I’ve read allot of posts where people mostly assume or pass on second hand word of mouth information that a roll cage automatically eliminates back seat passengers. I’ve also read that you should not even drive a roll bar equipped car without a helmet! Obviously many people here disagree with that one...

[sharp67]

So whats the difference if you hit your head on the cage or an interior metal part of the car? I suppose you elliminate some of the distance between your head and the object, but it would be like getting in a car with a much smaller passenger compartment and you would not have that distance to start with.

[rockdogz]

I have another horizontal bar across the rear package tray tying the rear bars together, and will use it to mount harnesses for the back seat passengers if I have any. They may not be that comfortable, but they will be belted in TIGHT if they ride back there...

[baz67]

So whats the difference if you hit your head on the cage or an interior metal part of the car? I suppose you elliminate some of the distance between your head and the object, but it would be like getting in a car with a much smaller passenger compartment and you would not have that distance to start with.

The roll bar leaves dent in your head or your head leave an impression in the sheet metal. Either way will hurt, but one hurts much less.

[PhillipM]

And where does seatbelts mount ?

I believe that car has regular 3 points in it along with the capability of 4 points. I could be wrong.

[Samckitt]

Here is part of an article from the July 2003 Chevy High Performance:

Mark didn't pull any punches with the interior either. Perhaps the biggest challenge was tucking the 10 point rollcage up out ot the way to allow use of the back seat.

Another part:

What may not be immediately noticeable is the 10 point cage because Mark spent hours adjusting the tubing until he had tucked it almost out of sight. Detroit Speed & Engineering also came up with the custom dash pod mounting the auto meter instruments......

[Mean 69]

Kind of an interesting note on this, folks have the impression that our rear suspension setup can't be used with a back seat, which isn't true. In order to show that, I am putting a back seat in the second gen we are doing for the shop, and this car has an eight point cage in it, as tight as you can possibly get to the roofline, pillars, etc, basically just like the Mule approach. I sat in the back area to start fitting things out last week for the interior guy who will be building the seat, etc, and two things immediately jumped out. One, the rear seat area of a pony car is incredibly small, I'm not a big guy and there's little chance I'd be comfortable back there for more than a trip to the local store. If you have small kids, it might be better, but adults? Nuh-uh. Two, you cannot move your head more than a few inches when in the back without hitting your head on the downbars, period. Even with really good padding such as being offered these days, NO ONE will be riding in the back seat of this car, not even my small kids, ever.

Still by (un?) popular demand, the car will have a rear seat, and a cage. My strong opinion is that you should never let anyone in the back seat of one of these cars if it has a cage or roll bar.

Mark

[rockdogz]

Kind of an interesting note on this, folks have the impression that our rear suspension setup can't be used with a back seat, which isn't true. In order to show that, I am putting a back seat in the second gen we are doing for the shop, and this car has an eight point cage in it, as tight as you can possibly get to the roofline, pillars, etc, basically just like the Mule approach. I sat in the back area to start fitting things out last week for the interior guy who will be building the seat, etc, and two things immediately jumped out. One, the rear seat area of a pony car is incredibly small, I'm not a big guy and there's little chance I'd be comfortable back there for more than a trip to the local store. If you have small kids, it might be better, but adults? Nuh-uh. Two, you cannot move your head more than a few inches when in the back without hitting your head on the downbars, period. Even with really good padding such as being offered these days, NO ONE will be riding in the back seat of this car, not even my small kids, ever.

Still by (un?) popular demand, the car will have a rear seat, and a cage. My strong opinion is that you should never let anyone in the back seat of one of these cars if it has a cage or roll bar.

Mark

That's strange, my kids' heads aren't anywhere near the down bars. I will check it out when I get the car back, and if there's any chance of contact then they won't ride. Without a helmet. But, strapped in tight I think they'll be ok until they are a lot taller.

[parsonsj]

I went the same route: 10 pt cage and back seat. My smallest (4'6, 65 lbs.) fits, and with a properly tightened 4 pt harness he'll be ok for awhile. My oldest (5'3, 115 lbs) won't.

The damn kids grew up while the car was being built! My plan would have worked much better if it hadn't taken 6+ years to finish.

jp

[Mean 69]

The damn kids grew up while the car was being built!

Yep, that has a tendancy for happening. They don't stay small very long, and if mine were indeed as small as they were three years ago, with the right harnesses, etc, I "might" have taken them on some trips around the fairgrounds at the annual car shows, etc. Not now. And honestly, this isn't an exaggeration, bodies move in ways you wouldn't believe in wrecks. I know a guy that was part of a safety crew on a road course when a car wrecked pretty hard. Five point harness, they couldn't at first figure out why the bottom of the steering wheel had a huge dent in it. It was from the top of the guys helmet. Did I mention five point harness?

Not a scare tactic for all of you twenty-somethings that are still convinced you are indestructable, it's just that I'm not twenty something anymore.

Mark

[bookends]

this isn't an exaggeration, bodies move in ways you wouldn't believe in wrecks. I know a guy that was part of a safety crew on a road course when a car wrecked pretty hard. Five point harness, they couldn't at first figure out why the bottom of the steering wheel had a huge dent in it. It was from the top of the guys helmet. Did I mention five point harness?

when I was in the Airforce we had a f-15 that came down with a brake failure and had to catch the barrier, the front landing gear was still off the ground when the hook caught and slammed the plane down. the pilot's helmet scratched the canopy and busted the heads up display, both being an arms length away. he was wearing a mil spec harness. I don't know if he had it adjusted incorrectly or if his shoulders slipped through the harness but there's no way his head should have hit both objects and still been connected to his shoulders.

[Bow Tie 67]

Ok, that 5 point ^^^ must have been installed incorrectly. I'm debating on a roll bar, but would rather wait and see how the car does on a road course. I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk. Any thoughts or ideas?

[BonzoHansen]

Ok, that 5 point ^^^ must have been installed incorrectly. I'm debating on a roll bar, but would rather wait and see how the car does on a road course. I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk. Any thoughts or ideas?

So, you would attach the belts to the bar under the package tray? What about belt stretch? They do stretch, thus the F15 story or the helmet into the wheel story. I bet if you called Simpson, they would tell you that is not a good setup. IIRC, they said that was part of the Earnhardt deal, the belts were mis-installed and over stretched, and even ripped IIRC.

Bowtie racing, I would not install a cage for looks. If what I have read and been told is correct, you need a harness (not a 3 point) if you use a cage so you don’t slide around in an accident. Will the guys in your back set have seat belts?

[rockdogz]

So, you would attach the belts to the bar under the package tray? What about belt stretch? They do stretch, thus the F15 story or the helmet into the wheel story. I bet if you called Simpson, they would tell you that is not a good setup. IIRC, they said that was part of the Earnhardt deal, the belts were mis-installed and over stretched, and even ripped IIRC.

Bowtie racing, I would not install a cage for looks. If what I have read and been told is correct, you need a harness (not a 3 point) if you use a cage so you don’t slide around in an accident. Will the guys in your back set have seat belts?

That's why I installed the rear bar above the package tray, for the rear harnesses.

[BonzoHansen]

That's why I installed the rear bar above the package tray, for the rear harnesses.

Gotcha. Are there headrests or something to keep their heads from snapping back & hitting that bar?

[rockdogz]

Gotcha. Are there headrests or something to keep their heads from snapping back & hitting that bar?

It's pretty far back - close to the rear window.

[parsonsj]

I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk.

That's almost what I did: I welded tabs to my x-brace and then made a horizontal bar that bolts to it. My rear seat straps wrap around that.

jp