Shock recommendation

[jeffandre]

The Hotchkis Bilsteins for a 69 Camaro came today and I got them installed. The lower mounts needed a little massaging as they were a little narrow, but otherwise no problems. They were the perfect length and I now have full suspension travel.

With the springs set on medium, the ride was incredible. Bumps that used to make me slow down and cringe pass without any fuss. The car feel so light and responsive. Turn in is very crisp and this is still with the endlinks as loose as I can go. The next step is to remove them and see if I even need a front bar.

On bumps were both tires hit the bump at the same time, it feels like I could use just a tad more rebound control, but it is not uncomfortable at all. The car never feels out of control. It rides so smooth that I will most likely try the stiffest setting on the spring.

I am truly amazed the difference a set of shocks can make. It makes me wonder how well the Hotchkis Bilsteins would work on the rear with the stock leaves.

Jeremy, any word on the trying the stiffer spring setting yet? I ran both the middle and stiffer setting, never the softest one. How are the shocks doing now that you have had more time with them? I plan on getting the Bilsteins too, looks like 69 Camaro fronts, and probably 70 Camaro rears (have VBP rear springs, 200#).

I had at least 3 different front coils setups, and 2 different leaf setups before switching everything to the VBP epoxy springs. The control, quickness, predictability, and overall comfort with relatively high spring rates has been phenomenal. It has been a while since the car has seen the road, but I know it will see limited time this summer. Marcus has me thinking about adjustable shocks again, we'll see...

[Jeremy]

I haven't had enough opportunity to drive the car much with all the snow we have been getting lately. It actually feels a little under sprung still. I did get a chance to tighten the end links on the front sway bar and see how much difference that made. I was expecting mucho understeer and it actually tightened things up a bit, but it still feels pretty balanced around town.

The shocks are definitely worth the money. Even with 3/4 inch spacers under the Edelbrocks, I am sure I was bottoming the shocks over certain bumps adding to the harshness. With the shorter shocks, I could get full movement of the suspension when I tested.

Before the shock change, tight end links made the car under steer so bad it was not enjoyable to drive. I don't know enough about shocks to say why it is more balanced now with a tight sway bar but it is.

If ride comfort is important I recommend the rubber cushions to mount the spring to the arm. I tried the poly and they were noticeably more harsh. I would say that the rubber compresses a bit at first and softens road impacts. Most of the time rubber compressing is a bad thing but in this case I think it is beneficial. I would say that it acts like a progressive spring and the first 1/4 inch or so compresses at a much lower rate than the leaf spring. Since the movement is controlled by the geometry of the arm and the shock, it isn't changing any alignment specs, just the level of resistance.

I agree with you that the springs react very quickly. I think the ride has actually improved on my car and it just feels lighter, although loosing weight up front never hurts.

I do plan to weld the mounts to the subframe and gusset everything where I can to make up for the material I removed. I hope to add composite leafs this summer or fall. How do you like the 200# rate for the rear? I was leaning towards the 150 but VBP does not list this anymore, just the 200.

[jeffandre]

The 200# rear springs were my first VBP parts, followed the the front spring setup a few years later. I love them, they replaced 160# Rancho leafs and were tighter and more comfortable, with less road noise and harshness. The rear reacts so fast and smooth that I was actually able to do scary moves under extreme pressure with the same reaction and predictability my buddies Porsche 911 has. Of course he can beat me in a race, but I can stick to him like glue on the freeway offramps. Same thing with another guy who had a serious 944 Turbo. As long as I had speed heading into a turn, I could plant on his rear and push.

I'll get enough ride comfort with the Del-a-lum bushings that replaced the poly's int he VBP control arms. I also welded the front spring mount to the subframe, didn't like the bolt setup.

My memory of highway driving before the VBP springs was that I had to hit about 80 before the car felt right (slalom front coils, Rancho 160# leafs). After the VBP springs were installed it handled much better and felt right at regular freeway speeds.

[Jeremy]

I agree about the road noise. It was remarkable how much less noise the transverse leaf transmits, even with solid bushings in the arms.

Glad to hear you like the rear springs. I had thought about flex a form springs but it sounds like I will stick with VBP. If you don't mind, could you measure from the ground to the top of the rear fender arch? I would also need to know your tire size. I am looking to see how the ride height with the springs will compare to my current height as I really like it.

[jeffandre]

I agree about the road noise. It was remarkable how much less noise the transverse leaf transmits, even with solid bushings in the arms.

Glad to hear you like the rear springs. I had thought about flex a form springs but it sounds like I will stick with VBP. If you don't mind, could you measure from the ground to the top of the rear fender arch? I would also need to know your tire size. I am looking to see how the ride height with the springs will compare to my current height as I really like it.

Jeremy, my fender arch is different than yours, closer to the ground by 2+ inches (Camaro). I have 345/30/19's, and the top of the tire is just out of view when looking at the tire/fender lip area from the same level. The front spring eye is moved inward, and a bit lower than stock. The rear spring eye is also moved inward (not as much as the front), and higher up as it is riding in a slider, instead of on a shackle. I am running 2" lowering blocks at this time. I expect the car to drop a little when it is fully back together, between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. I cannot recall where my rear was when I had the springs in the stock mounting locations, but I think I had 2" lowering blocks and still wanted to go lower. The VBP springs brought the rear up too high for me. Here's a few pics of where the rear ride height is now:

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[Jeremy]

I got a chance to change the springs to the stiffest setting. It took about 20 minutes. With practice I am getting real quick at it. The car road great, the best that it ever has. It is very responsive yet the car stays level at all times. Before the conversion, it seemed to "bob" a lot more with road dips. It also tracks much much better, although I still need to rebuild my rag joint.

It is not harsh at all. Turn in is real sharp and it handles extremely well. The steering is nice and heavy without feeling sluggish. It understeers a bit, but it balances out real nicely with a little throttle input.

I will probably try pro-touringf-body's rear sway bar struts as they are supposed to be a little stiffer than the factory ones. This should dial in a bit of oversteer to help balance things out.

jeffandre,

Thanks for the pics. When I looked at the arch in relationship to the body line I could see the difference as I had never noticed it before. Yours give me at least something to look it and get a rough idea.

[Jeremy]

I am still running the springs at the stiffest setting. I replaced the rubber mounts with the poly to see what difference that made. It really helped with the remaining bounciness. I did not notice any difference in ride harshness. My wife rode in it for the first time yesterday and noticed the lack of road noise and thought it rode better.

[jeffandre]

I am still running the springs at the stiffest setting. I replaced the rubber mounts with the poly to see what difference that made. It really helped with the remaining bounciness. I did not notice any difference in ride harshness. My wife rode in it for the first time yesterday and noticed the lack of road noise and thought it rode better.

What rubber mounts did you replace? The end mounts are poly on mine, but there I believe there is rubber in the slide assemblies (for adjusting spring rate). Did your shocks come with rubber or poly? I shoudl receive mine this week (thanks to GP Superstore).

[Jeremy]

I ordered my kit with rubber and poly spring to arm bushings and had been trying the rubber ones.

I don't recall what type of bushings came with the Bilsteins. I am pretty sure I used the rubber bushings from my Edelbrocks.

[jeffandre]

I ordered my kit with rubber and poly spring to arm bushings and had been trying the rubber ones.

I don't recall what type of bushings came with the Bilsteins. I am pretty sure I used the rubber bushings from my Edelbrocks.

Cool, I am using the same setups, so I will keep everything as is!

[Jeremy]

The shocks are proving to be very sensitive to temp changes. It was 73 today when I went for a test drive over my normal test loop. There was only one section of road where it felt underdamped. I would say when the temp hits 80 and above I should be right where I want it with the spring on the lowest setting.

From some research I have done, this is not uncommon for gas charged shocks, I have just never noticed it on a factory setup. I would venture to say that it is more sensitive to changes due to the reduced weight.

[Jeremy]

The Hotchkiss Bilsteins worked well for most driving but I wanted more. I just got my varishock double adjustables today. I can't wait to get them in and see how they work. I may even have to knock them out tonight after the little one goes to sleep.

I'll keep you updated on how they work, but they looked great in the spun aluminum. The instructions were well written with great diagrams. All of the hardware and associated pieces are definitely beefy.

[Jeremy]

First impression is that these shocks are awesome.

It took about 1.5 hours to get the swapped out and the worst was figuring out how I was going to mount the bottom. SC&C recommended on top of the arm but due to the construction of the VBP arm, I would have had to do a lot of fitting to the front side of the cross bar.

Since the lower mount is three piece, I disassembled it and slid the eye through the arm and re assembled. This proved the ticket and it mounted up perfectly.

While I was at it I checked total wheel travel and I have 5 1/4 inches.

I checked with Bilstein and the Hotchkiss shocks were 1.81 times stiffer in rebound than compression. Varishock recommended starting on 3 and working from there. I put the compression on 3 and since I needed more rebound than the Bilsteins set the rebound to 6.

On my normal "test" circuit it road like a new car. Bumps were soaked up and no "bouncing."

Two bumps in 10 miles felt a little soft on rebound but the ride was so soft, yet controlled I am leary of going stiffer. The nice thing is I can try and go back. One on ramp at speed used to feel real jittery and it was so smooth now.

Turn in is amazingly quick now even though I backed of the tension on the sway bar endlinks. The front end does not roll at all, or at least it does not feel like it. The car is a little tail happy now but not unnerving.

If anyone considers the VBP setup, go with this shocks as they let you dial in the unique properties of the suspension. I am so happy with it that I was others were closer so I could let them ride in it. It is so much better than the factory setup.

[DarkoNova]

Any pics of the springs? I remember looking for VBP back when this thread was started and couldn't find anything other than Vette parts (obviously, lol), so I'm wondering whether they make these springs anymore?

Matt

[Jeremy]

They still make them and they are back listed in their latest catalog. I'll try to post some pics in the next few days.

[Jeremy]

These shocks are friggin amazing. I have had time to play with the adjustments and there is a noticeable difference between settings. I played with going softer on compression and it made things worse. I am at 4 on compression and 8 on rebound. I love to drive my car. Bumps are smoother and the handling gets better with every tweak.

I'll never get it dialed in to its maximum potential as I will never see a track, but it will be one heck of a street car. I really believe I 'll get the combo of ride and handling that I am after.

I'll have to tweak the rear at some point to get it to better match the front.

[DarkoNova]

You got them for all 4 corners? Or just the front? I'm starting to think I should get some of these. I hate going over bumps in my car. 600 lb/in springs make it about as tough as running a solid suspension with no springs or shocks.

Did you get the single or double adjustable?

Matt

[Jeremy]

I have the double adjustables for the front only. The rears are quickly becoming a want for the rear, though.

From what I have found shocks will do wonders for your ride quality. I have played with these a bit and found that going stiffer on compression actually improved ride quality. I ran them softer from my baseline and things got worse.

When I think back, impact harshness was terrible with the cheap shocks and not much better with the Edelbrocks. The Hotchkiss Bilsteins were much better, but the Varishocks have improved the ride so much. I will continue to tune until I get the ride I am looking for but so far so good. I enjoy driving it so much now that I look for excuses to drive it. I even purposely drove in the rain three times yesterday because it is that much fun and the car had only seen rain on trips in the past.

[DarkoNova]

Awesome info, thanks.

I'll have to try and work them into my budget, heh.

Matt

[Jeremy]

I set them on 5 C and 8 R today. The ride is now as good as my 06 Taurus or 05 Crown Vic around town. On the curves there is no comparison. Real large bumps still give a hint of bounce but joints in pavement, even if they aren't level pass without notice. Even the factory suspension didn't like joints in the pavement. I actually find myself trying to hit reasonable bumps to see just how well they are soaked up.

I got adjusting the shocks down to an art now as I don't get the slightest bit dirty. It takes less than 30 seconds to do both sides.

The car is now starting to understeer a bit which is what I would've expected adding so much more roll resistance to the front. Up until now it has been real tail happy. I am very pleased with this as the car is much more predictable.

It is raining pretty good hear and the roads are real wet. I was turning a corner and the rear got loose (not expected as I was starting in 2nd) and the car was very balanced and predictable. Before if the rear lost traction it wanted to snap around .

I plan to talk to VBP and pass on my results to them. Shock tuning turns this setup into a different animal and really does away with the gremlins others have reported. I really believe they should team up with Varishock and sell these as a part of the kit or at least an upgrade.