Replacing a 700R4 with a 4l80E in a 68 Camaro.

[Rileys68Camaro]

What will I need to swap my 700R4 out for a 4L80e and what am I looking to spend?

The 700R4 is just there, has a flexplate on the motor, not really installed and functional, started with it several years ago, before I heard of the 4L80e or this website.

Just looking for a decent junkyard find for now, to run a mechanical speedometer. Plans for a Shrifter(sp) in the future.

Small block 350, 300hp or so, 3:73 or 4:10 rear depending. I don't have any linkage or anything and thought before I went that way, I'd check into a 4l60e or 80e.

Don't have much time to search being deployed,and trying to get as much info to get my car driving as soon as i can when I get home.

Thanks!

[GetMore]

The 700-R4 and 4L60 are the same transmission. The 4L60E is electronically controlled and needs a computer, but otherwise it is the same as the 4L60/700-R4.
For your power level you will be fine with your 700-R4.

The 4L80E only comes in the electronically controlled version. (Actually, that's not completely accurate, there is an aftermarket company making them with a manual valvebody.)
It is a bigger, heavier transmission and has more drag, so it's usually not recommended for use until your power levels require it. Of course, if you are thinking toward the future, when you'll have an engine making 700 hp then maybe it's worth it to you.

[Rileys68Camaro]

Yep, thinking toward the future for once. Don't want to have to replace the tranny if I end up with the supercharger or big block.

A lot of it will depend on what I can find in better condition and price I think though.

Also, the key idea is the electronic shifting so that I can use a Shrifter.

So is the crossmember and flexplate and all that the same? What contols do I need and for a mechanical speedometer?

Thanks!

[Steve Chryssos]

Riley,
So what are your plans for the future? 500HP? More? A well built 4L60E will handle that kind of power--especially with the short sidewall tires that we run on pro-touring cars. With regards to reliability, the key difference between a 700R4 and a 4L60E is that the 4L60E can be properly calibrated with ease. The right calibration will prevent excess slippage as well as excessivley hard shifts at the wrong time.

The '80 is a more complex install. Specifically, you should expect to fabricate a crossmember and clearance the tunnel (with a hammer) for the cooler lines.

4L80E swaps are not difficult. I only bring this up because the 4L60E install will be such an easy swap in your case. I'd like to hear your plans for the future.

And thanks for your interest in our product.
/Steevo

[DeltaT]

I look at around 650HP as the cutoff between a really built 4L60E and moving to a built 4L80E. I've seen too many people exceed the 650 mark with 60E's and blow them and build them again and blow them later. They would have been better off ponying up the bigger bux for the 80E up front.

I have about $5000 into my 80E setup including crossmember, electronics, converter, linkage mods, etc. I could have gotten a net $400-500 back if I could have located a good core and sent it to Hughes, but there were none around I could find.

Some assembly and install pix at my site, and I'm also using a mech speedo adapter attached to the rear of the tranny. BTW, I love the 80E! Mellow around town, a beast when I get on it, easy to program.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html

[Rileys68Camaro]

Hmm, thinking of sticking to the 60. 500hp is a goal, but not for a bit, gotta get the car going.

I hope it's not going to get me into the $5000 range, for that I'll put a six speed in, which is what I want, but I'll be happy with a good auto.

I'll still need to buy a crossmember, I'm trying to avoid fabbing anything.

I'm looking at the 60e/80e for the "right now" shifting ability that I hear it has. I've never been too happy with auto's for the time they take to downshift. I want it to hit the next lowest gear or what ever as soon as possible after I floor it.

Looking to set the car up for pro touring and just all around fun driving with some good all around performance. Don't want a drag car or a straight road race car. But I do want it to sping the tires without to much work.

[ty1295]

The 80e is an awesome tranny. It is physically heavier but I disagree that it takes more power to spin. I have always gone faster with them.

the 60 or 700 is borderline junk. Ok for a low hp driver, not so good in performance application unless you like removing and replacing it on regular basis.

[Steve Chryssos]

....the 60 or 700 is borderline junk. Ok for a low hp driver, not so good in performance application unless you like removing and replacing it on regular basis.

The 4L60E gets a bad rap because of it's 700R4 cousin. If you wave bye-bye to the 700R4 and its stupid ass TV cable and properly calibrate the 4L60E by computer, it will stand up to 500HP just fine. The guys who are blowing up 4L60E never bothered to recalibrate it.

Some shifts are too hard (abuse), while others are too soft (slippage). work on the electronic calibration so that sift firmness is right for every gear/throttle position combination and it will last.

Best of all, calibration is a piece of cake.

[myclone]

The 4L60E gets a bad rap because of it's 700R4 cousin. If you wave bye-bye to the 700R4 and its stupid ass TV cable and properly calibrate the 4L60E by computer, it will stand up to 500HP just fine. The guys who are blowing up 4L60E never bothered to recalibrate it.

Some shifts are too hard (abuse), while others are too soft (slippage). work on the electronic calibration so that sift firmness is right for every gear/throttle position combination and it will last.

Best of all, calibration is a piece of cake.

You have to keep in mind the guy youre quoting owns a typhoon so the AWD coupled with lots of tq and boosted launches will turn even a 60e to mush pretty easily. Not just failed soft parts but snapped output shafts, twisted/broken input shafts, 2-4 band anchors ripped loose, and planetaries that explode (BTDT).

On a RWD vehicle that only has so much traction a 60e will be suprisingly durable as you stated. IMO 500hp is do-able with a 60e on street tires as long as the owner is aware of the fact that if he starts flogging it at the drag strip with slicks/DRs the life expectancy is a crap shoot.

Traction or lack there of is the key with a 700s/60e... spinning the tires keeps the trans alive but start hooking up while beating on it and all bets are off.

It sounds like the thread originator wants a street car that he can have a little fun with and burn a little rubber every once in a while. If thats the case a properly prepped and cal'd 60e will probably serve him will. Put slicks on it and/or flog the trans regularly he'll learn to dislike it sooner or later.

[ty1295]

Myclone hit my opinions on the nose.

The electronic stuff I love. To me it is like the difference between a carb and fuel injection. Once you understand it you don't want to go back.

Internally the 700 the 60e are very close to the same and share a lot of hard parts. 60e is just electronic, removing the TV cable as you said.

I gave up personally on 700 after helping my buddy go through 3 of them in 3 months with his basically stock syclone (with more boost). 1 blew up while being emission tested, 1 just broke and the 3rd and one built with nice parts just broke a hard part inside. At the point hard parts are breaking not much else you can do except search for someones special vodoo magic material, high dollar parts or move to a bigger trans. Now as Myclone mentioned we do have AWD so traction isn't an issue, and our little v6 makes BB chevy torque #'s at low rpms. Big torque on one end, traction on the other something in the middle is going to give up.

Remove the torque or traction the the 700/60e will probably live just fine. Heck I have a 60e in my tahoe with 147k miles, and doing ok. I just hate not being able to safely tow in OD and plan to yank it out and throw an 80e in it also. Did I mention I like the 80e?

I still find it extremely funny to see everybody assume the 80e takes more power to turn though. Same engine, same tune and the syclone we did went .2 faster on same track very similar weather. It now is as far as I know the fastest stock turbo/motor syclone around. I don't think the tranny made it faster per se, but it surely didn't hurt it either even though it does weigh a bit more.

[Tydriver]

You have to keep in mind the guy youre quoting owns a typhoon so the AWD coupled with lots of tq and boosted launches will turn even a 60e to mush pretty easily. Not just failed soft parts but snapped output shafts, twisted/broken input shafts, 2-4 band anchors ripped loose, and planetaries that explode (BTDT).

On a RWD vehicle that only has so much traction a 60e will be suprisingly durable as you stated. IMO 500hp is do-able with a 60e on street tires as long as the owner is aware of the fact that if he starts flogging it at the drag strip with slicks/DRs the life expectancy is a crap shoot.

Traction or lack there of is the key with a 700s/60e... spinning the tires keeps the trans alive but start hooking up while beating on it and all bets are off.

It sounds like the thread originator wants a street car that he can have a little fun with and burn a little rubber every once in a while. If thats the case a properly prepped and cal'd 60e will probably serve him will. Put slicks on it and/or flog the trans regularly he'll learn to dislike it sooner or later.

Myclone pretty much speaks for all us SyTy'ers.. I know the C5 guys can drag the 60e into the 10s relatively safely, but our heavy ass pig trucks can annhilate ANY built 700r4/4L60e. To date, there is only ONE truck that I know of that is low 10second capable that can run a 700r4 (its gotta be a freak of nature, but its a ROSSLER trans)..

Anyhow, you can spend BIG BUCKS for a Built 700r4/4L60e with Billlet This and CRYO'd that and still have a less reliable transmission than a beefed up 80e thats running stock hard parts (upgraded clutches and steels). The 80e makes up for the weight factor with Less pump pressure (read less heat too).

Parts are relatively cheap and will make that transmission handle justabout anything reasonably built motor wise with mostly stock (barring a parish level motor), if it was me, I'd do atleast the friction parts (and steels too). Here is what I am gonna do:


1x 400-00034418X 34418X TH400, 4L80E 34 Element Intermediate Sprag with End Caps. $53.63 + shipping from http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/

1x 400-0034006SP 34006-SP TH400, 4L80E HD Rear Case Bushing with Flange 64-ON. $5.24+ shipping from http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/
(they sell transmission parts CHEAP !! Will deal with in the future... This is the cheapest I found the 34 element sprag.)

1x 4L80E - HD2 TRANSGO Stage 2 Shift Kit 4L80 Heavy Duty, Street / Strip, or Full Race applications. $93.99/shipped from www.edgeracingconverters.com
(please note, they also sell this kit on ebay, I had such a great experience with them on this, I bought the parts below their Ebay ID is "transmissionpartsplus")

1x Alto 4L80E HP Super Master Rebuild Kit w/ Power Pk & Kolene Steels $304.99/shipped from www.edgeracingconverters.com
(please note, they sell this key on ebay as well WITHOUT the KOLENE STEELS for less $$)

Obviously this is overkill for some people, and not enough for others, I guess you need to figuire out where you fit in the HP world and what ET's you want.. I have a hard time taking anything anyone says on ebay, even if it was recently overhauled I'd still want the piece of mind knowing for sure what parts are in it. You have to yank it all out to get to the output shaft anyhow..

All of The parts below were ordered through Transmission Parts USA (www.transmissionpartsusa.com)

46380B 4L80E speed sensor 1991-on $16.62
46669A 4L80E Bearing kit 1991-on. $19.05
46999A TH400, 4L80E high energy reverse band. $10.45
46883 4L80E Overdrive roller clutch 1991-01. $18.45
46880A 4L80E Low roller clutch 1995-on $14.21
46819 4L80E Universal valve body separator plate 1991-02. $13.77
34322-01 TH400, 425, 4L80E Forward clutch hub. $82.01
46996 4L80E Front band 1997-on $8.33


Total is $640.74 + Labor to install ( I am doing this myself, its not hard if you get the ASTG manual and have a decent compliment of tools.)

The worst part about building an 80e is the expense of the Torque converter.. But you DO pay for a race converter on a 700r4/4l60e as well, so the reality is, its not that bad..

[zbugger]

You SyTy guys have to remember that you are getting better traction than the Camaro boys. Much harder in fact. The lack of traction that the Camaro guys enjoy allow the mentioned transmissions to live longer. Good advice none the less, but you have to remember the tire spin factor.

[ty1295]

I do just as Myclone does and lockup ASAP. Basically it locks just shortly before it hits second which for us is probably 30mph or so. I have the tranny shift way early, to keep the motor in the peak power range of 3400rpm. This truck is bone stock motor and made 312hp 500 ft lbs at 3400 rpm. By 4500 it was down to 130hp or something crazy so we just shift real early and keep it loaded. Convertor is worth .2 to .3 seconds and was built knowing we would be locking it under WOT.

Probably 40-50 passes on tranny now, fluid is as clean as day 1.

As a former camaro owner myself, I think the camaro guys need a dual horsepower #. For example "My engine makes 700hp, the tires will only hold 200" The same goes for 700 trannies. They really need to rate them by how much hp it would hold on the backside, not the engine side of things.

Precision makes a 3 and 5 disc lockup. I am putting a 5 disc in my typhoon (twin turbo 350 v8) and plan to lock it up coming out of the hole the same way.

[critter]

This has been a helpful thread for me and I'd like to thank you guys.

I'm looking at a 4l80 for $650, recently rebuilt. I want to run it behind my 462ci Pontiac motor that will be making roughly 425HP and 500+ lb. ft. of torque. Is that a decent price (what will a controller cost me?) and will it take the abuse?

[Steve Chryssos]

That's a great deal. Does it have a shift kit installed? That would help build mechanical line pressure. The TCI computer runs $659.95 at Jeg's. If the link below does not work, go to jegs.com and search 890-377000

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...erm=890-377000

[GetMore]

I'd like to point out something to the Sy/Ty guys talking about their improved times with the 80s. You like shifting sooner, to keep the engine in it's powerband. The 80 has much closer ratios than the 60. This helps keep you in the powerband and gives you better times.

I don't know if your results would carry over to other engines, and how they compare to street use.

[myclone]

I'd like to point out something to the Sy/Ty guys talking about their improved times with the 80s. You like shifting sooner, to keep the engine in it's powerband. The 80 has much closer ratios than the 60. This helps keep you in the powerband and gives you better times.

I don't know if your results would carry over to other engines, and how they compare to street use.

For us the higher 1st gear ratio isnt an issue since the motors in these trucks are low RPM grunt builds. They LOVE to be loaded down and with the horrible head/intake set up from the factory theyre done by 5200 rpm...if you wind it any further youre just making more noise and no more power (Ive tried wringing it out and it fell flat on its hind end by 5400).

With that being said the higher 1st gear in the 80e may account for some of the improvement in ET due to the above reason(s) but then again I cant really tell much difference by the seat of the pants of the 80Es higher ratio when launching at 15psi off the brakes. The 80e has more than enough 1st gear ratio to blow all four tires off just like the 700 does when launching it the same way. If 1st gear is steep enough to spin the tires in an AWD vehicle then its not the gear ratio that will need work in a RWD vehicle its the suspension/traction dept that will need work.

My .02 FWIW

[ty1295]

Yep, you are correct in the 80e doesn't have as low of a 1st and OD is not as high (.75 vs 700's .7)

That may help, I think the dramatically less line pressure needed helps also. The real benefit is not having to worry about WHEN will the next tranny blow up.

We have done everything we can to break the 80e in the test truck. And it was a minimal build. You can download a movie here of when the trans had less than 1k miles on it.

http://gallery.jsmanufacturing.com/m...&g2_itemId=965

Here is a day we ran it ~15 times, TCC locked up on every pass. Some passes within 20 minutes of each other. Truck was driven 2hrs to track #1 race ~12 times, driven 1hr to track #2 raced ~4time, then 2 hours back home. ~18mph on way there and back. O yea all runs on pump gas also. If you watch around half track it shifts into OD. TCC locks up in 2nd.

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/...9988e5648b.htm

I would say we have 100+ passes now with TCC locked up. No signs of any trans issues. Owner went to change fluid other day and it was so clean he left it alone.

[DeltaT]

SyTy guys - what converter stall and brand are your running? Any mods like anti-ballooning or billet stuff?

I have the Hughes 2800 Streetfighter lockup and so far (still haven't hooked up either nitrous stage) it's working great behind my blown 383, and I have the "Lockup at WOT" box checked too!

Jim

[myclone]

SyTy guys - what converter stall and brand are your running? Any mods like anti-ballooning or billet stuff?

I have the Hughes 2800 Streetfighter lockup and so far (still haven't hooked up either nitrous stage) it's working great behind my blown 383, and I have the "Lockup at WOT" box checked too!

Jim

Im running a Coan TC right now and havent had any issues so far. Ive ran other brands (billet TCS 9/11) without any issues but Ive heard of lower strength TCs ballooning on a hand full of ppl.