Replacing a 700R4 with a 4l80E in a 68 Camaro.

[Rileys68Camaro]

What will I need to swap my 700R4 out for a 4L80e and what am I looking to spend?

The 700R4 is just there, has a flexplate on the motor, not really installed and functional, started with it several years ago, before I heard of the 4L80e or this website.

Just looking for a decent junkyard find for now, to run a mechanical speedometer. Plans for a Shrifter(sp) in the future.

Small block 350, 300hp or so, 3:73 or 4:10 rear depending. I don't have any linkage or anything and thought before I went that way, I'd check into a 4l60e or 80e.

Don't have much time to search being deployed,and trying to get as much info to get my car driving as soon as i can when I get home.

Thanks!

[GetMore]

The 700-R4 and 4L60 are the same transmission. The 4L60E is electronically controlled and needs a computer, but otherwise it is the same as the 4L60/700-R4.
For your power level you will be fine with your 700-R4.

The 4L80E only comes in the electronically controlled version. (Actually, that's not completely accurate, there is an aftermarket company making them with a manual valvebody.)
It is a bigger, heavier transmission and has more drag, so it's usually not recommended for use until your power levels require it. Of course, if you are thinking toward the future, when you'll have an engine making 700 hp then maybe it's worth it to you.

[Rileys68Camaro]

Yep, thinking toward the future for once. Don't want to have to replace the tranny if I end up with the supercharger or big block.

A lot of it will depend on what I can find in better condition and price I think though.

Also, the key idea is the electronic shifting so that I can use a Shrifter.

So is the crossmember and flexplate and all that the same? What contols do I need and for a mechanical speedometer?

Thanks!

[Steve Chryssos]

Riley,
So what are your plans for the future? 500HP? More? A well built 4L60E will handle that kind of power--especially with the short sidewall tires that we run on pro-touring cars. With regards to reliability, the key difference between a 700R4 and a 4L60E is that the 4L60E can be properly calibrated with ease. The right calibration will prevent excess slippage as well as excessivley hard shifts at the wrong time.

The '80 is a more complex install. Specifically, you should expect to fabricate a crossmember and clearance the tunnel (with a hammer) for the cooler lines.

4L80E swaps are not difficult. I only bring this up because the 4L60E install will be such an easy swap in your case. I'd like to hear your plans for the future.

And thanks for your interest in our product.
/Steevo

[DeltaT]

I look at around 650HP as the cutoff between a really built 4L60E and moving to a built 4L80E. I've seen too many people exceed the 650 mark with 60E's and blow them and build them again and blow them later. They would have been better off ponying up the bigger bux for the 80E up front.

I have about $5000 into my 80E setup including crossmember, electronics, converter, linkage mods, etc. I could have gotten a net $400-500 back if I could have located a good core and sent it to Hughes, but there were none around I could find.

Some assembly and install pix at my site, and I'm also using a mech speedo adapter attached to the rear of the tranny. BTW, I love the 80E! Mellow around town, a beast when I get on it, easy to program.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html

[Rileys68Camaro]

Hmm, thinking of sticking to the 60. 500hp is a goal, but not for a bit, gotta get the car going.

I hope it's not going to get me into the $5000 range, for that I'll put a six speed in, which is what I want, but I'll be happy with a good auto.

I'll still need to buy a crossmember, I'm trying to avoid fabbing anything.

I'm looking at the 60e/80e for the "right now" shifting ability that I hear it has. I've never been too happy with auto's for the time they take to downshift. I want it to hit the next lowest gear or what ever as soon as possible after I floor it.

Looking to set the car up for pro touring and just all around fun driving with some good all around performance. Don't want a drag car or a straight road race car. But I do want it to sping the tires without to much work.

[ty1295]

The 80e is an awesome tranny. It is physically heavier but I disagree that it takes more power to spin. I have always gone faster with them.

the 60 or 700 is borderline junk. Ok for a low hp driver, not so good in performance application unless you like removing and replacing it on regular basis.

[Steve Chryssos]

....the 60 or 700 is borderline junk. Ok for a low hp driver, not so good in performance application unless you like removing and replacing it on regular basis.

The 4L60E gets a bad rap because of it's 700R4 cousin. If you wave bye-bye to the 700R4 and its stupid ass TV cable and properly calibrate the 4L60E by computer, it will stand up to 500HP just fine. The guys who are blowing up 4L60E never bothered to recalibrate it.

Some shifts are too hard (abuse), while others are too soft (slippage). work on the electronic calibration so that sift firmness is right for every gear/throttle position combination and it will last.

Best of all, calibration is a piece of cake.

[myclone]

The 4L60E gets a bad rap because of it's 700R4 cousin. If you wave bye-bye to the 700R4 and its stupid ass TV cable and properly calibrate the 4L60E by computer, it will stand up to 500HP just fine. The guys who are blowing up 4L60E never bothered to recalibrate it.

Some shifts are too hard (abuse), while others are too soft (slippage). work on the electronic calibration so that sift firmness is right for every gear/throttle position combination and it will last.

Best of all, calibration is a piece of cake.

You have to keep in mind the guy youre quoting owns a typhoon so the AWD coupled with lots of tq and boosted launches will turn even a 60e to mush pretty easily. Not just failed soft parts but snapped output shafts, twisted/broken input shafts, 2-4 band anchors ripped loose, and planetaries that explode (BTDT).

On a RWD vehicle that only has so much traction a 60e will be suprisingly durable as you stated. IMO 500hp is do-able with a 60e on street tires as long as the owner is aware of the fact that if he starts flogging it at the drag strip with slicks/DRs the life expectancy is a crap shoot.

Traction or lack there of is the key with a 700s/60e... spinning the tires keeps the trans alive but start hooking up while beating on it and all bets are off.

It sounds like the thread originator wants a street car that he can have a little fun with and burn a little rubber every once in a while. If thats the case a properly prepped and cal'd 60e will probably serve him will. Put slicks on it and/or flog the trans regularly he'll learn to dislike it sooner or later.

[ty1295]

Myclone hit my opinions on the nose.

The electronic stuff I love. To me it is like the difference between a carb and fuel injection. Once you understand it you don't want to go back.

Internally the 700 the 60e are very close to the same and share a lot of hard parts. 60e is just electronic, removing the TV cable as you said.

I gave up personally on 700 after helping my buddy go through 3 of them in 3 months with his basically stock syclone (with more boost). 1 blew up while being emission tested, 1 just broke and the 3rd and one built with nice parts just broke a hard part inside. At the point hard parts are breaking not much else you can do except search for someones special vodoo magic material, high dollar parts or move to a bigger trans. Now as Myclone mentioned we do have AWD so traction isn't an issue, and our little v6 makes BB chevy torque #'s at low rpms. Big torque on one end, traction on the other something in the middle is going to give up.

Remove the torque or traction the the 700/60e will probably live just fine. Heck I have a 60e in my tahoe with 147k miles, and doing ok. I just hate not being able to safely tow in OD and plan to yank it out and throw an 80e in it also. Did I mention I like the 80e?

I still find it extremely funny to see everybody assume the 80e takes more power to turn though. Same engine, same tune and the syclone we did went .2 faster on same track very similar weather. It now is as far as I know the fastest stock turbo/motor syclone around. I don't think the tranny made it faster per se, but it surely didn't hurt it either even though it does weigh a bit more.

[DeltaT]

ty1295,

When are you locking up in the 1/4 mile? What gear?

Thanks,

Jim

[myclone]

ty1295,

When are you locking up in the 1/4 mile? What gear?

Thanks,

Jim

While I cant speak for ty1295 Id say 80-90% of the syty ppl are manually locking the TC on the 700/60E right out of the gate. It wont lock in 1st but it will lock as soon as the 1-2 shift is made if there is a manual lock up switch wired in. Since these are turbo motors they absolutely love to be loaded down to make the big tq. When I started locking my 2800rpm tc manually I went from running 8.0 in 1/8th to 7.70 with no other changes. Yeah, its hard on the trans but a kick in the shorts if youve got a tc that can hold it.

ty1295 may be doing otherwise and Im not trying to stick my nose in here just passing along info.

[DeltaT]

Yeah, I have mine set to lock up at WOT plus speeds >45mph, so I figure it's locking up in 2nd at WOT soon after it shifts.

Jim

[myclone]

Yeah, I have mine set to lock up at WOT plus speeds >45mph, so I figure it's locking up in 2nd at WOT soon after it shifts.

Jim

Jim,

I thought you were talking about a 700/60e when I replied the first time...sorry. I cant really say what other ppl are doing with the 80e lock up but Im locking it @ WOT/45mph as well. After a half dozen WOT 25psi floggings back to back the 80e didnt seem to break a sweat and the fluid temps never got above 170 deg with mid 90s ambient temp.

An educated guess is that I havent even made it even remotely work hard in my 3400lb AWD vehicle...yet

[zbugger]

You SyTy guys have to remember that you are getting better traction than the Camaro boys. Much harder in fact. The lack of traction that the Camaro guys enjoy allow the mentioned transmissions to live longer. Good advice none the less, but you have to remember the tire spin factor.

[Steve Chryssos]

......I cant really say what other ppl are doing with the 80e lock up but Im locking it @ WOT/45mph as well. After a half dozen WOT 25psi floggings back to back the 80e didnt seem to break a sweat and the fluid temps never got above 170 deg with mid 90s ambient temp....

Wow! 45mph? Temp s one thing but the actual friction lining surface area for the lock up clutch is quite small. I would think that the lining's life span is short at 45 mph. How long have you been doing this? Not criticizing--just curious, since I make "safe" recommendations to my customers when tuning over the phone.
I presently restrict my WOT lock up parameters to 65mph so that there is sufficient vehicle momentum.

Are you using a multi disc lock up? I wanna try one.

[ty1295]

I do just as Myclone does and lockup ASAP. Basically it locks just shortly before it hits second which for us is probably 30mph or so. I have the tranny shift way early, to keep the motor in the peak power range of 3400rpm. This truck is bone stock motor and made 312hp 500 ft lbs at 3400 rpm. By 4500 it was down to 130hp or something crazy so we just shift real early and keep it loaded. Convertor is worth .2 to .3 seconds and was built knowing we would be locking it under WOT.

Probably 40-50 passes on tranny now, fluid is as clean as day 1.

As a former camaro owner myself, I think the camaro guys need a dual horsepower #. For example "My engine makes 700hp, the tires will only hold 200" The same goes for 700 trannies. They really need to rate them by how much hp it would hold on the backside, not the engine side of things.

Precision makes a 3 and 5 disc lockup. I am putting a 5 disc in my typhoon (twin turbo 350 v8) and plan to lock it up coming out of the hole the same way.

[myclone]

Wow! 45mph? Temp s one thing but the actual friction lining surface area for the lock up clutch is quite small. I would think that the lining's life span is short at 45 mph.

I would assume the LU clutch in a stocker isnt designed to handle WOT high tq lock ups but then again Ive never cut an 80e converter apart to take a gander at the innards to see how beefy they really are.

How long have you been doing this? Not criticizing--just curious, since I make "safe" recommendations to my customers when tuning over the phone.

No criticism taken and the ~six WOT lock up blasts were back to back. I dumped enough cash into the 80e so I wanted to make it earn a little of it LOL.

I presently restrict my WOT lock up parameters to 65mph so that there is sufficient vehicle momentum.

Thats probably pretty safe IMO and should make for a long lasting tc/trans. Im used to pulling the 700 twice a week for freshening so if I get a full season out of an 80e I'll be happy. Soft part rebuild kits are cheap and easy to install in an 80e but with a 700 it gets a little old replacing broken high dollar hard parts.

Are you using a multi disc lock up?

Yes, a Coan high zoot piece and so far Im 100% pleased with it. Its not loose like a B&M/TCI at light throttle but once the motor starts putting some tq through it at about ~8psi of boost it builds to 15lbs lightning quick. Its like the best of both worlds really....docile at light throttle but hold the brakes and give it a little throttle and spool up is as close to instant as I'll ever get without a little shot of N2O.


BTW, the temps I mentioned really dont tell the whole story. The trans cooler was moved to under the bed of the truck with minimal air flow when I did the 80e swap (I added a spal fan) and its no longer plumbed in series with the cooler in the radiator anymore. The 170 deg temps were with the fan off just to compare the temps with what I was used to seeing when I ran the 700. After the 1st WOT/TC lock up pass on a 700 the fluid temps would have passed 210 deg and rapidly climbing.....thats with the cooler mounted behind the grill as well as having the stock cooler in series too.

To sum it up I now have WAY less cooling capability with the fan off and no radiator mounted cooler in line and the temps are 40+ deg less with 5 times more abuse. Im not an engineer by any means but that leads me to believe the 80e really isnt breaking a sweat.

Im just waiting to find the next weak link in the driveline though LOL.

[Steve Chryssos]

I've seen a cut-a-way at TCI. Picture a ring about 9" in diameter and 1/2" to 3/4" wide. That's it--not a lot of surface area. Of course, torque converter efficiency plays an important role. But to look at that ring, it's obvious that it was only designed to handle low load driving such as highway cruising.

And it's definitely not designed to handle continuous shifting which is what I want to do with it. I had a nice discussion with Sonnax last week and they're looking into it. They're also working on valve body mods that will enhance engine braking.

[ty1295]

As my buddy that races has told me TCI stands for "Trash can's Incorp!"

I personally have not seen the inside of any of them. I do know specially when I was talking to Coan on the Syclone convertor I was very specific that it would be locked up under full throttle several times.

I have heard rumors they use a Northstar clutch or something, but I am not sure.