"Opinion Versus Tech"

[baz67]

On my 68 camaro I am running a scotts clip it has alden coil-overs
and has wilwood 6 piston calipers with 13 inch rotors and manual rack
we have taken the car to willow springs race track in rosemand ca
on open track day and the track is a 2.5 mile course it handles great

One note. You join today, your first post is defending a substandard product and you bring zero tech to support your claims.

Two members brought up two very valid observations. One is safety the other is stability. The forward frame to body bushing supports are utterly unsafe, period. It would be great to put a camera in the engine compartment to see how much those upper shock mounts flex. That is great for the predictability of the suspension. Oh, BTW I sure the lower mount in single shear is real safe. Oh on second thought it may be fine because of all of the flex that I am sure was designed into the upper mount to relieve the force from the lower mount.



Either be a man and be upfront about your intensions, you either work for Scott or know him, and want to defend that POS or go home. Now if you want to discuss actual data, NOT "it handles great", we are always open.

[Mkelcy]

One note. You join today, your first post is defending a substandard product and you bring zero tech to support your claims.

Now if you want to discuss actual data, NOT "it handles great", we are always open.

I agree the Scott's subframe doesn't appear to be well-engineered. However, I find your demand for "tech" to be kind of odd, coming as it does from a poster who, on merely seeing PICTURES of the new DSE subframe, declared

"Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better [than the 21st Century Street Machine subframe]."

That is also a zero-tech statement, backed up by no data whatsoever, compounded by the fact that it came from a moderator.

I like DSE's products and their customer service, and Kyle and Stacy seem to be both hotrodders and excellent engineers, but that doesn't automatically make their products the best.

So let me put the shoe on the other foot: what DATA do you have that shows the new DSE subframe to be better (by whatever standards (other than bling) you want to use) than, say, either a Wayne Due or a 21st Century sub?

[baz67]

I agree the Scott's subframe doesn't appear to be well-engineered. However, I find your demand for "tech" to be kind of odd, coming as it does from a poster who, on merely seeing PICTURES of the new DSE subframe, declared That is also a zero-tech statement, backed up by no data whatsoever, compounded by the fact that it came from a moderator.

How do you know the Scott's frame is poorly engineered by looking at pictures? Maybe it is because you have some knowlege and can make an educated statement. Hmm, I might have made an educated statement as well.

What does me being a moderator have anything to do with this?

I like DSE's products and their customer service, and Kyle and Stacy seem to be both hotrodders and excellent engineers, but that doesn't automatically make their products the best.

Where did I say that?

So let me put the shoe on the other foot: what DATA do you have that shows the new DSE subframe to be better (by whatever standards (other than bling) you want to use) than, say, either a Wayne Due or a 21st Century sub?

I have tested and measured some of DSE products. Have you? Now if you would have used my entire quote, instead of taking it out of context(good for credibility by the way) and not adding your words to my quote(even better for credibility), you may have seen the big picture. Here is my quote:

Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

Responding to:

Is that frame superior to one that utilizes c5 parts? It looks very much like a modified stock frame. I'm seriously trying to decide on which is better. That one or one from like 21st century.

My statement was based on what I know, just like you did with the Scott's frame. The Corvette based frames design are limited by the dimensions of the control arms. DSE avoided that by engineering thier frame as to match what they think is ideal and not design the frame as close to ideal as you can because you are restrained the the dimentions of the control arms. I am confident that the Due and 21st frames are good, but DSE had less contraints by not being bound by fixed dimensions thus, IMHO, creating a better frame.

Unless you have anymore personal attacks, please keep on the topic of the tread.

[Mkelcy]

Now if you would have used my entire quote, instead of taking it out of context(good for credibility by the way) and not adding your words to my quote(even better for credibility), you may have seen the big picture.

I have a perfect view of the big picture. Cykotic asked about the DSE sub versus the 21st Century sub, as follows:

Is that frame superior to one that utilizes c5 parts? It looks very much like a modified stock frame. I'm seriously trying to decide on which is better. That one or one from like 21st century.

You responded as follows:

Just because the parts say Corvette does not mean they are better. It is the geometry. Knowing how DSE designs and engineers their products, I would say yes the DSE sub is better.

There was nothing taken out of context and you are clearly expressing your opinion - based, apparently solely on "how DSE designs and engineers their products" - that the DSE sub is better than the 21st Century sub - exactly as presented in my earlier post.

As for what being a mod has to do with it, as a mod you represent Pro-Touring.com. The last time I checked, DSE, Schwartz, SC&C, ATS and Wayne Due - all of whom make and manufacture various front suspension solutions for first generation Camaros - are sponsors of the site. If I were a sponsor and a mod, with no basis in fact, suggested that another sponsor's product was better than mine, I'd be pretty upset. Although 21st Century isn't a sponsor, Wayne Due - who has a similar product - is.

Exprienced folks appreciate that a mod often times has no significant knowledge about a particular topic; less experienced users might actually give more weight to a moderator's reply than to the reply of another user who had vastly more knowledge but was not a mod.

I'm sorry you saw my post as a personal attack; it was more intended to indicate that the demand for "tech" should be consistently applied when opinions are expressed, and that IMHO, mods have a special duty when opining that one solution is better than another to make sure they have something to back up their claims.

[zbugger]

It's kinda funny how things go. Just because he's a moderator doesn't mean he's an expert. He's here to keep the site functional. Yes, he may be biased towards DSE, but that's how quite a few people are towards other things. Yes, I found Brian's comment towards the DSE subframe funny, and I would like to see it run before claiming perfection, but the Scott's frame looks terrible. I'm not as worried about the front of the frame as I am about the mid-body mount bushing stand. It's gonna fold in a heartbeat. The control arms look too short to do any good, and the chance that it will perform well on the street isn't all that good either. Scott's builds show style hotrods, not performance street cars. I'd rather run a stock subframe than this thing.

[ilovefirstgens]

I'd rather run a stock subframe than this thing.

id run a stocker with 2 bolts holding it in than that puppy haha

[zbugger]

id run a stocker with 2 bolts holding it in than that puppy haha

Heh.... No comment.

[novanutcase]

So now that that is settled, how about World Peace?

[zbugger]

So now that that is settled, how about World Peace?

World peace? Go jump in a lake. "War is cool..." G.W. Bush (One night in bed before he went to sleep after getting some)

[derekf]

I split these posts out of the other Scott's Hot Rod thread not out of any sort of secret moderator "I've-got-your-back"ness, but because they're taking over the other thread, and I was enjoying that thread without the back-and-forth.

I read Brian's post, with his "knowing how DSE engineers their products" to be an implied "in my opinion". Perhaps it wasn't implied enough. I don't see a beef with folks posting opinion instead of tech so long as the one isn't being represented as the other.

I'd question comments like "it handled great" as well if there were numeric data available (lap times) that wasn't shared.

I don't think there's data like that available yet on DSE vs. Not-DSE, or at least I haven't heard of any comparison being done.

[TitoJones]

Here is your comparison-
DSE vs ATS

Look for tech on post 100/101.

Tyler

[Mkelcy]

I split these posts out of the other Scott's Hot Rod thread not out of any sort of secret moderator "I've-got-your-back" ness, but because they're taking over the other thread, and I was enjoying that thread without the back-and-forth.

Derekf: I have no problem with you splitting this portion of the Scott's Sub thread out, but the title you've selected is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Perhaps "Opinion Versus Tech" might be more appropriate.

Moreover, if anyone thinks my discussion with Baz67 was a defense of the Scott's subframe, or a claim that the DSE subframe was better or worse than one from Wayne Due or 21st Century, then I've failed to make my point.

So far as I'm aware, no one has done any back-to-back testing of any of these subframes (or the ATS or SC&C solutions) using the same car and the same test methodology on the same track. Until all other constants are controlled (and you define what you mean by "better"), I think it's hard to say any one of these solutions is better than another, even ignoring the enormous cost differences betwen some of the available solutions.

Baz67 believes that DSE has determined the single "ideal" geometry and built it into their sub. 21st Century has built a lot of adjustability into their sub, allowing a knowledgeable owner to determine (within the limits of the available adjustability) his own "ideal" setup. Both approaches are valid, depending on what the owner wants and how much testing and setup work he's willing to do.

We always get into trouble on these "x's part is better than y's" threads when: (1) there's no hard data, and (2) no one says what they mean by "better."

[derekf]

Thread renamed, per your request.

[BonzoHansen]

I'm eating a lot of popcorn tonight...

[baz67]

Nah, you can put the popcorn away. Both points were made and understood. I would bet this dies a pretty quick death.

[MrQuick]

ahhh, yes you were. LOL

[brianj5600]

Is this CC.com part 2? I used to come here because the friendly discussion. People were respectful. Now the mods lead the charge, insulting new members. Fordeater may have much to learn, but the childish bullying is uncalled for. Have some class!

This is from the Rules of Conduct.
3). Positive Attitudes: "Trash-talking" a.k.a. "flaming" is greatly frowned upon at Pro-Touring.com. Our members come here to enjoy themselves and gather helpful information for their projects. In accordance, we ask that you please maintain a positive attitude whilst posting in the forums. You are entitled to your opinion and individuality, but at the same time: if you post in an inflammatory manner, your post well be deleted or edited for content deemed unnecessary by an Administrator or Moderator, and the thread possibly closed. If you continue to post in such a manner, administrative action will be taken, and you will be banned.

And this...
8). Unnecessary Bashing: In accordance with our positive attitude policy, we do not promote unnecessary bashing of our members or supporting vendors. We ask that you handle such matters privately via email or PMs. Any threads or posts containing such content will be edited or deleted by an Administrator or Moderator, per their judgment.