Springs or Air Bags

[oddball383]

I like the look of stance you can with air bags when there is no air in the system, but I like the way my car handles with the springs. Can I get the same ride with air and will they take hard cornering like the springs?

[Lowend]

In a word - No

[formula]

Depends on who you ask and how far you want to go. It's possible to design a traditional suspension that will outperform the capabilities of most air suspensions, but there are some formidable airspring setups these days that will (arguably) be more comfortable for street use and still generate decent performance on the track. Do some research, especially on ridetech.com and lateral-dynamics.com. Those are pretty much the two leading companies in either camp.

a word of warning: Around here, there's not much love lost on air suspension, so don't expect much of a response in that direction. I would encourage you to do your research, try and get the chance to try both setups, and make a decision for yourself.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

yes, you can have your cake and eat it too........this is exactly why we have been attending autocrosses and open track events to prove just that. Now dont get me wrong here, you cant just take any set of airsprings, cram them under you car and take off expecting all to be well. That would essentially be the same as going to a wrecking yard, and walking up to a pile of coil springs,grabbing a pair, throwing them is and expecting the car to handle and ride.

[novanutcase]

I'm going to reserve my opinion on air suspensions in respect to Tony at Airide and Mark at Lateral Dynamics. I will say that I did some pretty extensive research(Actually driving cars with both air and spring setups) an I will say that my choice is to go with the spring setup. Yes, air affords you the convenience of lowering and raising your car and if your not going to drive the car very hard air should be fine. I, on the other hand will be driving it hard, on occasion(for any johnny laws that are reading this!)and prefer the sping setup for my application. Besides, I don't like having an air tank in my trunk.

[TonyL]

Im the opposite. the only thing keeping airride stuff off of my 'vair is the cost. My car is a street car first, not a hard core race car. This is where the air ride setup can really shine. Awesome stance and as good or equal performance to a point.

Hey Tony, have you guys ever done a corvair yet? need a test car? ;)

[bret]

NO you can't get the same performance from an air spring as you can from a traditional spring...it's actually much better. Think of an airspring as a widely [but not infinitely] adjustable progressive spring that is tunable by pushing a button instead of changing components. This is a "blue sky" generalization, but think of the real world tuning possibilities.
Let's cut to the chase. Find a vehicle that has a properly designed, installed and tuned air suspension. Ask the owner for a ride. Make your decision from there. If you can't find an opportunity to your liking, come to Jasper, Indiana and I'll give you a ride in one of our 15 air suspension vehicles [or all of them, if you like]. If you are not seriously impressed I will reimburse you for your flight.
This may sound like a far fetched idea but we are talking about a significant investment in your hotrod here. The additional investment of another $500 or so to fly out here would represent about 10% of your total suspension package. [For those who may read this post years down the road, I reserve the right to change my mind after October 1 2006.]
To bring this scenario to as many people as possible we [air ride Technologies] have implemented a Street Challenge Autocross at some of the Goodguys events this year. The first one was held this past weekend in Nashville, Tn. There will be another in Kansas City on Labor Day weekend and in Dallas at the end of September. We'll have the details on our website shortly. Come out and run your car [air suspension or not] through the course and maybe take a ride in one of ours. At best you'll be able to make your choice with confidence. At worst...it is still a good time, and you'll have something to talk about on the forums!
the point of all this is that there is a serious difference in air suspensions. Don't let an experience with a generic air suspension on a vehicle that drags the ground convince you that air has no performance merit. That would be like saying that all big block Chevys are slow after driving a farm truck with a 454.
Oddball383...Good luck with your research...you're on the right track!

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Tony,
We have not specificaly done a corvair here at the shop but I dont see any major issues with doing one. Drop me a line directly at my desk at 812-481-4704 and we will hash it out....

[trackrat79]

If I am understanding how air bag systems work the spring rate progesion you speak of goes the wrong way for performance tuning. I need the spring rate to go up as the ride hight goes down, not the other way around. I also may want to change the spring rate but keep the same static ride hight. Can those two things be done with air bags. I am not into droping my truck on the frame when it's parked but the idea of being able to run a few laps and make an adjustment on the fly is enticing to say the least.

[bret]

A double convoluted airspring which is found on most front end applications is very progressive, meaning that the farther you compress it the stiffer the spring rate gets. Sleeve type airpsrings are typically much more linear, but by customizing the shape of the piston that the rubber rolls over as it compresses it can be made progressive or even regressive if desired. The current 7000 and 9000 series ShockWaves [which are usually found on rear applications] use a straight piston and offer a linear spring rate. Since we can now crimp our own shockwave rubber in house, I will be playing with different shape pistons this summer to induce different spring rate progressions.

[USAZR1]

Are you planning to be at the Texas Goodguys event,Bret? If so,maybe you can give me some pointers on sorting out my Shockwaves. Looking forward to meeting you and talking to Tony again.

[novanutcase]

Tony and Bret,

With all due respect, I have to chime in and say that after reading your answers the impression I got was that your systems are still not quite there yet. Yes, I have heard the adjustability arguments that you and others have posted but the truth is in the doing and it sounds like you haven't quite hit the nail on the head yet. I'm sure at some time in the near future your testing will yield comparable performance but I must say that the rides I took in cars with airbags were fine for just cruising around but when I really pushed the car through the curves they seemed.....hmmmmm...trying to think of the word......sluggish! Especially when I tried to run them through a cone slalom on another occasion. I know that this is your livelyhood and I am certainly not trying to bash your product. I'm only giving my .02 as to the experience I had with them.

[TonyL]

novanutcase The car you rode in was setup by airridetech? at one of those open events they put on? Or just some guy who put airbags on his hot rod? The input i've heard is the opposite. that cars that are set up for bags properly are almost better. G/28 did just as good as the track setup it had if I remember correctly.

[Lowend]

I don't want to take anything away from air-ride specialities, they really have taken the technology a long way...
But I don't see air-bags ever being used on serious race cars. They just don't have the consistancy or tunability you can get from a traditional coil spring / adjustable shock setup.
To this day I have never seen anyone running a airbag setup (competitively) at a SCCA Pro-Solo or Regional Tour event; and that is where real race suspensions go to be proven.
Now if you are comparing air-ride to a set of QA1 coilovers (barf) than they probably are similar, but this is not what any serious racer considers an acceptable setup.
Most guys who really want to go fast use these
http://www.penskeshocks.com/adjustab.htm
But be ready to drop $4K-$6K just for the shock/spring setup

[novanutcase]

Tony L!

See Lowend comment..........As I said before, the rides I drove that had air were cars with Airides product. Please dont misconstrue my statement as being derogatory towards Airides product. I think that it is great for the applications that I mentioned. My preference is for a traditional spring and coil suspension, which, as lowend said is used by practically every racing application there is. Their must be SOME reason for that, right? Perhaps yours and mines description of high performance driving is different and for that reason you are considering Airide as adequate for your application whereas I do not. In any case, let me say it again. I DO NOT THINK THAT AIRIDE OR ANY OTHER AIR TYPE SUSPENSION DOESN'T WORK! I feel that for MY application it doesn't and prefer the coil and spring! For others, I'm sure Airide has the qualities they are looking for and for this reason they get them. In fact, Tony? Bret? Does the free flight offer still stand? I think I may take you up on it! Send me a ticket. If you convince me that your system is superior to the traditional coil and spring then I will reimburse you for the flight and buy your system. Fair enough?

Oh......by the way.....can you guys at least provide the cold beers?!???!!

[ProStreet R/T]

Now I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but it seems to me like you're not giving things a fair shake for both sides.

To compare something like a shockwave to penske or moton coilovers is absolutely asinine. But in that regard you're not talking about just a spring type change.

Compare a shockwave to a QA1 and it's much closer to a fair fight in terms of technology. And even at that they are both adequate for 95% of the people who build these cars. Even for track days, I would be surprised if either setup showed a big advantage. Reason I say that is most of these cars aren't that dialed in where it's going to make a big difference.

In all honesty no bags will never replace coilovers in a racing arena. For the sheer fact that you can't alter spring rate independant of ride height. I can go from a 700# spring to an 1100# on my viper and it won't change the ride height a bit. Good luck trying that with an air setup.


But truthfully, how many of us are really going to take these cars out and bust off :49's around willow? And if you are, then chances are being bagged up on 19/20's isn't even in your vocabulary.

For a comfortable street car that will see the occassional track day, but spends most of the time cruising I don't see a downside. Plus you can roll into the local cruise night and stuff those monster wheels half way up into the fender.


besides, who says you can't run airbags with a set of quad adjustable Moton shocks

[Lowend]

But truthfully, how many of us are really going to take these cars out and bust off :49's around willow?

[novanutcase]

:bsjerk:

[formula]

:bsjerk:

just curious, which of their cars did you ride in?

[Kenova]

Tony or Bret, here's a question or two about air spring rates. Or more precisely, am I thinking straight.
More air = higher spring rate
Compressing spring = increase in spring rate.
Now if I re-mount the air spring so it is taller at ride height and put enough air in it to maintain the original ride height, I'm thinking that the spring will have more air in it at approximately the same pressure. Is the spring rate going to be higher? Can this be used to tune the springs providing the shock doesn't run out of travel?
I was also wondering if the rear Shockwaves from a heavy car could be used on the front of a lighter car, or do you have a sleeve type of spring for use on the front?
Ken