air ride for 1980 malibu

[civicduty13]

hey everyone. Im new here but been around the old cars my whole life and am currently building a 1980 chevy malibu 4 door and want it to handle good but i want the adjustability of air ride. Is there any sugestions that you could give me to keep kind of a happy medium between the 2 worlds? I plan on either running 17 or 18 inch rims on it and love the pt look. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[TurboLark]

The happy medium between air ride comfort/adjustability and handling would be coilovers at all 4 corners. Adjustable, and good handling.
Air bags arent designed for handling. The work well, but just not for corner racing.

[civicduty13]

well i was hoping that maybe just some larger sway bars would maybe help combat the air spring sway a bit. I do want to do air ride no matter what but what sugesstions could you give to make it handle a bit better?

[TurboLark]

well i was hoping that maybe just some larger sway bars would maybe help combat the air spring sway a bit. I do want to do air ride no matter what but what sugesstions could you give to make it handle a bit better?

Big swaybars will help in the turns, but will make the ride worse over uneven roads(bumps etc).
I wanted to do airbags as well, and have a corner carving car, but afte all my searching, it was just not someting that could be done, and still have all the benefits of the air bags.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Well actually no.... Like any suspension system, for it to work properly for you application the system needs to be built to do so. Getting an air suspension to handle is a piece of cake and as long as the system is built correctly ( if you are building your own) and installed correctly using the correct components then you will have a wonderfully handling piece. This year we had our first StreetChallenge event where we rented Putnam Road Coarse for a day and brought in tons of media just to prove that vehicles with a properly built airsuspension will handle as well as a true built performance suspension. I am sure you guys will be reading alot about this event in your monthly subscriptions to come. Autoweek TV had a segment on the Streetchallenge and gave it very favorable results. Horsepower TV did a segment on a 63 Impala that was equiped with a full suspension and the car performed absolutely awesome. You would never have dreamed of an X frame chev going through a slalom coarse the way this one did.
If you stop and think about an airsuspension in the purest sense it will be alot easier for you to see what I am talking about. An airbag is a spring. It exhibits a spring rate.Just like a performance oriented coil spring it has a progressive spring rate. It is completely adjustable. Meaning that you can literally change the spring rate of the car by simply making changes in pressure. You can vary the pressure a few pounds either directly from your target ride height pressure, not effecting aesthetic ride height but changing the way the car performs. Airsprings also do not transmit frequency so they will help absorb some of the punishment your chassis is seeing from those low profile big barreled rollers we all like to run.
I am trying to post this with some good information for you guys without sounding like this is a blatant self promotional post.... sometimes that gets a little tough to do! If you have any questions fire away and I will try to keep an eye on this thread.

[KWIKND]

Where is the starting point as far as components go? Sway bars, shocks, control arms etc. (69 A body BBC).
http://www.strangemotion.com/html/whats_happenin.html
Dan

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Where is the starting point as far as components go? Sway bars, shocks, control arms etc. (69 A body BBC).
http://www.strangemotion.com/html/whats_happenin.html
Dan

Well.... the main things you are going to want to address is going to be the "lushiness" of the OEM suspension. This can be done without putting a new chassis under the car but you are going to be looking at modifying one of everything....
I would start by replacing the OE control arms and trailing arms for a nice set of tubular arms with poly busings. Also look for Arms that have been modified from factory specs to better suit a lowered ride height. That way you do not loose your "gained" geometry by lowering the car down. The second step is going to be to incorperate a quality set of sway bars front and rear. The sway bar end links will probably need to be replaced or modified to work with a lowered chassis unless they are specified for a lowered car. Add the appropriate airsprings on the car coupled with a four wheel independent control system and this should get you more than started.... If you are going to fabricate the air system yourself make sure you get educated on the subject of airsprings. You wouldnt take a coil spring out of a 98 1-ton chev and stick it in a 69 Camaro would ya..? nope.... so you dont want to stick an airspring with an inapropriate stroke and spring rate into an enviroment where it doesnt match weight values or motion ratios.

[Air Daddy]

The happy medium between air ride comfort/adjustability and handling would be coilovers at all 4 corners. Adjustable, and good handling.
Air bags arent designed for handling. The work well, but just not for corner racing.

Did you get a chance to read the new issue of popular Hot Rodding yet.
Remember Pro-touring is a street driven car not a "track only" race car.
Air suspension is a new concept for many people out side of the Simi truck industry.
It has many benefits for the Pro-touring and the 1/4 mile guys.
Here is one major plus.
Have you ever scaled a care before? what a pain!
We just scaled a 62 Bel Air bubble top in less than 3 minuets at the track! We raced it then air it up an drove it home.
Try that with coilovers.


Tony, I'll send you pics of Fishes new Bubble Top.


Frank

[TurboLark]

Did you get a chance to read the new issue of popular Hot Rodding yet.
Remember Pro-touring is a street driven car not a "track only" race car.
Air suspension is a new concept for many people out side of the Simi truck industry.
It has many benefits for the Pro-touring and the 1/4 mile guys.
Here is one major plus.
Have you ever scaled a care before? what a pain!
We just scaled a 62 Bel Air bubble top in less than 3 minuets at the track! We raced it then air it up an drove it home.
Try that with coilovers.


Tony, I'll send you pics of Fishes new Bubble Top.


Frank

I understand the ease of it. And I have scaled over 80 cars in my days at the suspension shop(mostly IT cars and Formula Fords). The whole thing with the air ride stuff is it has to be specifically engineered for the purpose of turning corners fast. You cant just slap on the basic Shockwaves,etc and hit the open track events. You need to figure the height of the particular air spring at the rate you want, then engineer the mounting points for it to give the ride height you want. That aint quick, nor is it cheap. Once it's all done, then it is easy to scale, and probably does ride nice. Also, coilovers weigh a hell of alot less than the bags and shocks, solenoids, tank, pump, lines etc. I guess you wouldnt need most of that if you want to air up with valves at each wheel, but that would be a waste also.

Maybe i'm missing something. Could you go into a bit more detail of what is really required? I loved the airride in my Mark VIII, and would love to do it in my A-body, but the cost and the process to really get it to handle, AND ride nice sent me to coilovers.
Thanks.
Phil

[David Pozzi]

One of the frustrating things that happens is when I ask someone selling airsprings what the spring rate is, they can't tell me. I realize there are lots of things that vary the rate but on A car at A ride height, there IS a rate at some known pressure and load.

When someone can't be specific, it puts me off. I don't want airsprings if I can't figure out what rate I've got and how much it changes if I vary pressure or swap in another unit.

Can I have a linear spring rate like a coil spring or are they all rising rate when you hit a bump?
Can I lower the car by lowering air pressure, but have as stiff or a stiffer rate than when it was higher?

It seems to me airsprings work backwards from what is needed, release pressure to lower the car, fine but then you need stiffer rates then to keep the car from scraping, raise the car and you have more travel/ clearance, you should have the springs get softer for better ride.

David

[TonyL]

Just to add to the fray (and not to cut into you guys over at air ride) check out the Praxxis system

Im no expert though but it does say that with this system somehow the spring rate increased as the car lowered. and it handled better. This is the system for "our" cars. it has 3 settings touring street and race.

[TurboLark]

Just to add to the fray (and not to cut into you guys over at air ride) check out the Praxxis system

Im no expert though but it does say that with this system somehow the spring rate increased as the car lowered. and it handled better. This is the system for "our" cars. it has 3 settings touring street and race.

Now that make it even more confusing. Lower car= lower pressure, right? Lower pressure = lower spring rate, right?
Sure make coilovers a simpler, more user friendly setup doesnt it?

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Dan..... The starting point is really going to depend on the car you are putting it on and what needs to be replaced of the existing OEM equipment. Quality sway bars, bushings, and steering components is a good start. You also need to figure out from the start at what you want your finished product to be ie.. Four bar, ride height, brakes, ect. That way you can start gathering the parts for the final product....

Turbo.... One of the advantages is that you are reducing unsprung weight versus a coil over. Now adding air over traditional coil springs is usually a substantial weight savings. The only real added cost is the cost of the average compressor system. If you weigh out the price of the air components versus replacing it with new OE replacment or performance oriented equipment, there is really not that much of a cost difference. Your comment about coil overs is a perfect example of the benifit to air... how many times do you know a guy that has literally tried every spring out there and cant quite get it right. Either they stick them in and they ride and handle great at first but after break in you figure out that the spring rate was wrong or vice-versa. You are right though.... air is definitely not for everyone and we know that but for alot of guys that are building true performance based suspenion systems on tour cars that are going to actually see miles down the interstate getting to the track... they can be a wonderful option.

David... True, Most people that are selling airspring these days do not even know the actual part number of the airspring they are selling and refer to them as a 2500, 2600, or 2800 lb bag.... there is no such thing and for someone like that to be able to give you any technical information is like going to autozone and asking for a 14" V belt and getting it.... ( been there, and he couldnt find 383 in GM's motor options ) We do have dynamic spring charts that I could probably get you if you desire. Now the tuning curve of any airspring is going to natrully be a progressive spring rate but.... depending on the application and the suspension motion ratios we are working with, We can get you set up with a spring that will be more or less aggressive. It does seem that airspring do work in reflection of what we would normally think that they would but like all Americans we have the tendency to overpower, overwork anything that we can just to find the limits on it. We have to look at it in the most practical sense. When we design a system for a specific car, the first thing we do is establish a target ride height which is typically 2-3" lower ( on cars ) than the factory ride height. Then we will choose an airspring that is within the parameters of the suspension dynamics and vehicle weight values. And build the suspension components to accept the airspring at "X" height with the vehicle at ride height. In other words.... we try to take all of the guess work our for your "average Joe" by giving him a Pre-built suspension. Then we can tune or modify from that point depending on what their needs are. Now the idea of changing the vehicles ride dramatically and changing spring rates as it is lowered is an awesome theory.. but.... until we can figure out how to maintain proper suspension geometry while going through that amount of travel and not adversely effect handling dynamics..... we are dreaming.... The basic premise to adding air is 1. Improve the ride quality and handling. You can not do one without loosing the other with traditional coil springs. 2. Give the user adjustability to be able to compensate for changing road or load conditions. Again... static steel suspensions do not lend themselves well to this theory 3. Give the user the ability to raise a lowered vehicle over an obsticle. Impossible with static suspension... The ability to set these cars on the deck when they are deflated is just a cool biproduct

[TurboLark]

[QUOTE=Tony@AirRideTech]
Turbo.... One of the advantages is that you are reducing unsprung weight versus a coil over. Now adding air over traditional coil springs is usually a substantial weight savings. The only real added cost is the cost of the average compressor system. If you weigh out the price of the air components versus replacing it with new OE replacment or performance oriented equipment, there is really not that much of a cost difference. Your comment about coil overs is a perfect example of the benifit to air... how many times do you know a guy that has literally tried every spring out there and cant quite get it right. Either they stick them in and they ride and handle great at first but after break in you figure out that the spring rate was wrong or vice-versa. You are right though.... air is definitely not for everyone and we know that but for alot of guys that are building true performance based suspenion systems on tour cars that are going to actually see miles down the interstate getting to the track... they can be a wonderful option.
QUOTE]
Wait, you are saying that the air system weighs LESS than coilovers? You are saying that a compressor, tank, solenoids, airlines and fittings, and the Shockwaves weight less than 4 simple coilovers? I doubt that very much. As for cost, I can replace all 4 shocks and springs for a hell of alot less than the $2000 for a air bag setup.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Actually I was saying that by going to airsprings you are reducing "unsprung" weight. The compressor, tank, valves, airline ect weighs about 26lbs on your average kit which is about the weight of a single heavy coil spring. The airsprings themselves weigh an average 2-3lbs each. The airsystem components ie, tank, valves, airline fittings ect.... would be considered "sprung" weight.

Tony....

[TurboLark]

Actually I was saying that by going to airsprings you are reducing "unsprung" weight. The compressor, tank, valves, airline ect weighs about 26lbs on your average kit which is about the weight of a single heavy coil spring. The airsprings themselves weigh an average 2-3lbs each. The airsystem components ie, tank, valves, airline fittings ect.... would be considered "sprung" weight.

Tony....

Ok, I see now. But the shock and airbag arent all unsprung are they? Since they are attached to the frame/body they are only like 50% unsprung right?
As for a coil spring weighing 26lbs, I dont think so. the rears i just picked up weigh only a couple lbs each. The fronts are heavier, but only by a couple lbs.

[yody]

I would like to say that air ride tech. seems to be a great company, they donated a Very Hefty gift at the Protouring.com Sema dinner, one of the biggest ones out of all the sponsors, I hope someone here can try out one of these suspensions! unfortunately my car is 90% done, and the suspension is already set! Sounds like a good compromise, although i would figure you would need huge swaybars to make up for the body roll.

[TurboLark]

I would like to say that air ride tech. seems to be a great company, they donated a Very Hefty gift at the Protouring.com Sema dinner, one of the biggest ones out of all the sponsors, I hope someone here can try out one of these suspensions! unfortunately my car is 90% done, and the suspension is already set! Sounds like a good compromise, although i would figure you would need huge swaybars to make up for the body roll.

I'd love to have a Airride setup. I just cant afford it with all the other things to do on the car.
Maybe a sponsorship, Tony??!

[Tony@AirRideTech]

I'd love to have a Airride setup. I just cant afford it with all the other things to do on the car.
Maybe a sponsorship, Tony??!

After SEMA the word "sponsorship" makes me break out into hives and on the sway bars...... nope, you actually need a little less sway bar than you would on a typical coil spring unless you are really wanting to pound the corners hard..... even then, just like a high progressive rate coil spring, you want to go with large bars.

[TurboLark]

After SEMA the word "sponsorship" makes me break out into hives and on the sway bars...... nope, you actually need a little less sway bar than you would on a typical coil spring unless you are really wanting to pound the corners hard..... even then, just like a high progressive rate coil spring, you want to go with large bars.

So I can put you down as a "yes" for sponsorship? :rolleyes5