Now for a little safety

[68ls1]

Ok, so now I've figured out I can get my Camaro going way to fast. I checked into the open road racing website that Kirt (ballistic69) referred me to and found out what the roll cage/bar requirements are. I was also directed in the direction of AME by Anthony (awr68) to solve my safety concerns. I just wanted to hear from anyone else who has installed the rollbar from AME. Anthony, do you have any pics or your bar? When I order do I specifically say it's for a 68 Camaro. The pics of the 8 point rollbar in the online catalogue shows the rearward braces as being very short, would the Camaro specific kit have the rear braces long enough to run into the trunk space?
Any first hand info and pictures of an in progress or finished install would be most appreciated.



Chill, Noel.

[RobM]

what open road race web sight did you go too?

[907rs]

Heres a link to Anthonys pics;
http://tony.jbworks.com/camaro/default.aspx

Maybe he will chime in and answer the rest of your questions.

[nancejd]

Most of the kits I've seen include a main hoop bent to fit your car, the rest of the stuff is cut to fit.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

www.openroadracing.com your cage requirements change with speed.if you think you will be moving towards 130mph+ you need a full nascar style cage for safety.i am the only one on this board who does these races regularly.please listen to me and disregard all advice from the rumor mill.don't ask about safety on this board.go to the source and get it first hand.nothing wrong with the people on this board,but why read an interpetation of the rulebook when you can get a copy of the rules and read them yourself.mkm(the pony express people)has a message board.or you can call our safety director and chat.and get a rule book before you start ordering parts.stay on budget.many cars that start down this path never run again.don't run silver state.

[68ls1]

D. A competition approved Roll Bar (See: Roll Bar Specifications). Certain vehicles with built in OEM roll over structures may meet the minimum roll bar standard for the Division. Contact Technical Operations to inquire about your particular vehicle. It is highly recommended that an additional roll bar be added to those vehicles with approved OEM roll over structures.

Thats right out of the rulebook. This was the site I alluded to earlier and this is the requirement for all Grand Sport Division classes. I would certainly be starting out at the low end of that. If I need to have a full Nascar cage to be safe at 130 mph then maybe I'm aspiring to the wrong things. This is a street vehicle, much like a brand new Vette, Ferrari or Viper that are capable of well over 130mph, safely, without a full cage. I certainly don't want to give the impression safety is not on top of my list, my dad would be riding shotgun/navigating for me, and if anything happened to him because I got dodgy on safety, I would hope I died too. However, safety isn't just what is built into the car, it's in the drivers ability to handle his rig, and to know his personal limits. I know I'm new, and I will conduct myself accordingly. Thanks for your input spanky.

Chill, Noel.

[Matt@RFR]

However, safety isn't just what is built into the car, it's in the drivers ability to handle his rig, and to know his personal limits.

You're right, up to a point. What happens if you hit a deer (hell, even a chipmunk) at 130, which unloads the rear end just enough to break traction, spinning you uncontrollably into a big outcropping of rocks?

Not a whole lot of driver skill involved in that equation.

I have a HUGE problem with people building cars that are capable of 130+mph (and are actually going to drive them that fast) and putting a roll BAR (not cage) in the car... all because it's a street car. Make up your mind. Is it a race car or a street car? If it's both, then it should be made according to the rules (both written and common sense type) of the more dangerous of the two.

When I help design cars (and when I have enough money to build my own), I figure out what the fastest speed obtainable will be, and then sit down, close my eyes, and picture the worst case scenario happening. A pressurised fire suppression system in a "street" car? Damn skippy.

And yes, I've lived with a jungle gym cage on the street. I built a '64 Chevy truck my junior year of high school with a cage that I built (with no-comprimise door X-bars both sides). That truck was my daily driver for almost 6 years. It was a pain in the ass to get in and out of for about a day. Trust me when I say that you get used to things like that...you develope a system for getting in and out, and after the first week, you don't even think about it anymore.

My opinion is that if you're not willing to put up with some inconviniences for safety, you shouldn't be willing to go fast enough to need those inconviniences.

[Steve Chryssos]

Who says a new Vette or Viper is safe @ 130?

Lawyer for Plaintiff:
"Your honor, the vehicle manufacurer has designed a vehicle capable of reaching a speed of 150mph therefore is liable for damages incurred when my client rolled his car 18 times at 150mph while talking on his cellphone."

Lawyer for the Defendant:
"Oh yeah? What was the posted speed limit on that road?"

Laywer for the Plaintiff:
Uhh...

Judge:
Case Dismissed.

[68ls1]

Honestly, if all you thought about was worst case scenario, then put down the tools and step away from the car, 'cause YOUR GONNA DIE. It's that simple. This is an inherently dangerous sport, worst case scenario is death everytime. Nothing you can do about that, ask Dale Earnhardt and so many others. Nascar cage, fire system, HANS, it all helps, but like Matt mentioned in his 'what if' example, worst case is your a dead man. Take it or leave it.
I'm just playing the devils advocate more than anything here, but the quote I had in my previous post was seriously from the openroadracing.com rule book. They seem to believe that a roll bar is acceptable to a class speed of 155mph and a tech speed of 168mph. Does that make it right? No. Does common sense come into play? Hopefully, although it's not so common nowadays. Will I take heed of your guy's warnings? Most likely.
This is why I started this thread, I need to hear stuff like this to make an informed decision about how safe, and as a result how fast I want my car to be. Another reality check. Thanks for that.
But..... at the end of the day, each time you strap in for this type of event, or any racing for that matter, you had better be willing to accept that this could be the last ride.

Chill, Noel.

[Steve Chryssos]

It's a good thread. Safety seems to be low on the list of priorities for most. We need to help others connect the dots between fast pro-touring car and safety. The average Pro-Touring car will reach solid triple digit speeds--way faster than the average hot rod.
Likewise, it blows my mind that factory supercars lack appropriate safety items because of their potential inconvenience. How many people would buy a new $90K 160mph Porsche Carrera S if they had to climb in and out of it or strap in?

[Matt@RFR]

Honestly, if all you thought about was worst case scenario, then put down the tools and step away from the car, 'cause YOUR GONNA DIE.

Wow! Everyone say it with me now...pessimist. I don't know if that's just fuel for the fire, or if it's really your view, but I would think that anyone that thinks that way wouldn't even bother building a fast car. Maybe a tank.....

I never said that worst case scenario's are all I think about. The only reason I think about them at all is to either help prevent them, or help my/your/whoever's chance of walking away from an unplanned off road excursion.

A minimal roll bar in a 130+mph car is like a stock cast crank in a twin turbo motor. If you actually use the piece to its potential, the likelyhood of failure is astronomical, whereas a good crank will increase the odds of living happily.

My thinking about worse case scenarios while building/designing something for a person's car is much the opposite of how you're viewing it. After I'm done picturing the worst, and design and build accordingly, it allows myself and the owner to enjoy the car that much more, with peace of mind that we've done everything we can to prevent a tragedy. Confidence in your ride is everything. Just like bikes...you have to trust that the front tire is going to stick in a corner, and you have to trust that your car will protect you through the absolute worst.

You can't make a car survive everything. People die doing lesser things than we all probably all have. We take big risks with our cars, and we have a blast while doing it. But, personally, I have a whole lot more fun when I know the car I'm driving will protect me through all but the worst possible crash.

Bottom line, though, is it's your car, your money and your body. If you knowingly choose to ignore the best in safety, I'll have little pitty if you bite it in an underprepared car.

[dennis68]

Noel, are you sure about that ruling on the 155 class. Tech speed and class speed are very different. If you were able to maintain tech speed the whole course you would get kicked off anyway for surpassing your class speed by too much. Also, be careful with tech speed. That IS the limit, if they tech at 168 and you get radar at 169----oh *****, your in trouble. That tech speed is a absolute max, they don't actually expect you to hit it which is why a bar is enough at tech spped 140-your only supossed to be going about 125 or so. If you look at the cage requirements for tech speeds 168 and up, the cage is actually pretty stout. It would easliy pass a NHRA/IHRA spec for 10.99.

I really don't see the point of building a car just up to the requirement, that is like exactly buying just enough beers for the friends you invited over-what if one brings a friend, what if somebody wants 2, you get my point. That little what if bug is always there, it would suck to wreck and have "what if" happen -being unpreppared.

I have to agree with Matt on this, if you are willing to build a triple digit speed car, you better be ready to deal with the inconveniences of driving it on the street with the jungle gym and fire system and everything else.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I agree with Matt, Steve, and Dennis. If you're planning for speeds over 140mph, plan for atleast a 12 point cage, or a modified 10 point cage. I will be doing my cage very similar to Steevo's, I will be making the revisions that he would have done if he had the chance to do it over again. I may even add a few extra bars or points, since I'm shooting for 185mph, but I'm not sure yet. Steve's cage is a dual purpose NHRA/SCCA legal cage, if I remember correctly, and although it's very safe, the inconvenience of getting in and out isn't too bad, due to the design of his door bars. Safety first.

[68ls1]

When I help design cars (and when I have enough money to build my own), I figure out what the fastest speed obtainable will be, and then sit down, close my eyes, and picture the worst case scenario happening.

Honestly Matt, how can a massive high speed crash causing death not be the worst case scenario. I think thats a little more realist than pessimist.

That said, I agree with cast crank analogy, well put, and point taken. You have forced me to re-think my initial plan, as I mentioned before

I need to hear stuff like this to make an informed decision about how safe, and as a result how fast I want my car to be. Another reality check. Thanks for that.

Just to clarify the rules I was talking about in a previous post and that Dennis questioned me on, click on the link below. What I posted was a direct quote, not my interpretation. Grand Sport Division rules

I agree that building to just meet the requirements is not the best for a guys health and I will endeavor to build myself a car I can feel safe in at the speed I intend to run.

Thanks again for the input.

[Matt@RFR]

Honestly Matt, how can a massive high speed crash causing death not be the worst case scenario. I think thats a little more realist than pessimist.

You're absolutely correct. That IS the worst case scenario...But by picturing it, you are now partially armed to avoid it, or lessen it's severity.

If you can imagine how you might get hurt when doing something, you can also imagine how to fix the problem. That goes for planning how to handle an intruder in your house, what to do if you get lost in the woods, as well as building a fast car.

I'd much rather imagine a dark and troubling image than live that same image, but with no recourse, and no available prevention.

[68ls1]

Now thats something I can fully agree with. Thanks for your input Matt. Now, how much do you charge for a cage?

Just kidding.

Noel.

[spanky the wondermuffin]

a couple friends of mine crashed this year during orr.very high speed,they were in the 160 and 170 class.cars destroyed.drivers fine.you can survive.i say build your cage to the next higher division.we are talking real speed here,not the number your factory speedexagerata-meter says.on the other hand at least a couple guys from this site say they are going to open road race every year,but no one has shown up yet.once again i say ask your questions over on the mkm board.why get information second hand.the tech rules are the minimal requirements.as far as the safety of exotics and fast sports cars-they used to let lamborghinis and the like race without cages.the first time one crashed it disintegrated with fatalities.no more of that allowed.a super car needs a super cage.don't listen to me.listen to our safety director.you can just call and talk to him.we want you to show up,have a good time,and be safe.everyone will help a rookie.you will be most welcome.

[68ls1]

I went over to the MKM message board like you suggested. I read a couple of post and will continue to lurk for a while. There is certainly some knowledgable people over there, and it seem s most of them have a major problem with SSCC. Anyway, thanks for the input spanky. You really need to put your real name at the bottom of your post...I laugh everytime I type spanky! hahahaha

Chill, Noel.