Alcino's MII suspension uncovered

[hssss]

Alcino
It took a while but I might have a spindle for you. I find I'm building 2 Lotus 7s. The first is a rebody of a V8 MII using generaly everything from the MII including the front crossmember and A arms. The second is a bit OTT the front suspension starts with MII but the A arms are 3" longer on the lower and an appropriate amount on the top. The spindle is from a 91 Tbird which is 1" taller .5 shorter from the lower balljoint to WMS and by the time I'm done the KPI will be smaller. The spindle can be modded to use the 99 to 04 Mustang GT PBR calipers which will result in lower unsprung weight. It can be easily converted to 5 on 4.5 by using 94 to 04 Mustang hubs which bolt on.

[JMarsa]

I'm interested in any more information Alcino has found since his purchase of the Chassisworks parts. I spent several hours a corner-carvers learning about the Mustang II. Then I found this thread.

--JMarsa

[fast Ed]

Alcino
The spindle is from a 91 Tbird which is 1" taller .5 shorter from the lower balljoint to WMS and by the time I'm done the KPI will be smaller. The spindle can be modded to use the 99 to 04 Mustang GT PBR calipers which will result in lower unsprung weight. It can be easily converted to 5 on 4.5 by using 94 to 04 Mustang hubs which bolt on.

Just FYI, the 93 - 97 T-Bird / Cougar spindles are the same overall dimensions, but incorporate a separate caliper anchor with the same mounting points as SN95 Mustangs, unlike the 89 - 92 spindles. So then you can pretty much bolt on any brake upgrades intended for an SN95 car. My 95 T-Bird Super Coupe is running the 99 - 04 Cobra 13" Brembo rotors with PBR calipers, which went right on my original front spindles.


cheers
Ed N.

[alcino]

What do you want to know about the Chassis works spindle? I returned mine. After checking them out I decided they were not for me. I hate adding weight, especially unsprung weight, and these babies were 50% heavier. (ductile iron may be "light", but there was so much more of it than the forged steel version)

I also hated the fact that the caliper bracket is casted on. Which forces you into using 11.75 rotors and wilwood dynalight bolt pattern calipers(note: I called them and they told me there was an additional bracket that allows 13"+ rotors, but all my stuff is the "popular" 12.19"). Why couldn't they have left off the casted bracket and kept the MII dust plate holes that are used for the bracket of all other kits?

Another thing was that the spindle was just a little too tall to fit inside my 15" wheels. Yes I like 15" wheels. Why? Because they are cheap and light and tires for them are cheap and light.

Plus after a track day of staying up with C5 corvettes and passing M3s (they had R compounds as well), I decided that my suspension is good enough. As long as your geometry is not dangerous, R tires will do way more for the money.

For those interested in the geometry, I took measurements on them. From what I gathered its geometry is the same as a 2" dropped MII, just the top ball joint is pulled up 7/8". Looking at Suspension analyzer I didn't find the Chassis Works to be much better than a 2" drop MII. It would give slightly better camber gain, but slightly worse roll center migration everything else equal. So what do you want more?

Alcino

[JMarsa]

Thanks for the the follow-up. I need to do some more home work on this and I might have some questions down the road. Love your car by the way!

--JMarsa

[hssss]

Just FYI, the 93 - 97 T-Bird / Cougar spindles are the same overall dimensions, but incorporate a separate caliper anchor with the same mounting points as SN95 Mustangs, unlike the 89 - 92 spindles. So then you can pretty much bolt on any brake upgrades intended for an SN95 car. My 95 T-Bird Super Coupe is running the 99 - 04 Cobra 13" Brembo rotors with PBR calipers, which went right on my original front spindles.


cheers
Ed N.

Unfortumatly that would be too easy.


This is the 93 to 97 MN12 spindle which is WAY too tall to use in anything but a MN12. The 87 to 92 MN12 spindle has a boss stinking out where the hole in the above spindle iswhich is used to mount the earlier sway bar. To use in a MII style suspension you cut the top half off at that boss and use that for the top ball joint. Unfortunatly the 87 to 92 spindle is set up for the earlier single piston caliper and those are heavy as well as the cast in pieces to hold the brake pads. One of the holes for the caliper mount falls onto one of the holes for the dust cover and I'll have to provide the other.

alcino
I have some Dodge police rallys that are 15". Out of curiosity I'll check tomorrow whether these would seem to fit them.

[Tomswheels]

10 years later... Can we get an update?

[GrabberGT]

Yes. Please. Would really like to see what you did with the front suspension to stretch the wheelbase on this? Did you have to move the motor forward as well? Im thinking prob so do to the oil pan but... it would be nice if you didnt.

[killer69]

Here is the Chassis Works spindle next to the stock. Axle snout is the same. Not sure if the Balljoint taper is stock or Chrysler. But the most irratating thing is that they limit you to a 11.75" rotor with their cast in caliper bracket. ATS, please rescue us!

what do you want?

[David Pozzi]

Alcino's latest mods are on his facebook page. I sent him a PM to check out this thread.
https://www.facebook.com/alcino.azevedo.7

[bryant]

chris, the motor stayed in the same place. just a fox oil pan swap was needed.

Alcinos car was one of the fastest cam cars before he did this stretch and now he says its easier to drive and has a better weight balance distribution. We have had 2 events this year with his stretch and hes on well used tires and hes right their at the top of the field. I suspect hes going to be a real challenge to the other couple of fast guys in our local cam class.

[alcino]

Thanks Bryant for answering while I been a bit busy lately. ...Tom?, not sure why your prodding this old thread after 10 years, although it was a fun trip through memory lane. Since there is some interest for an update I will continue the story.

The car setup remained as is described in the beginning of this thread until about 3 years ago when this whole SCCA CAM movement started. First thing to change was moving to a legal 200 tread wear tires. Running 15" tires limited me to 1 or 2 tire brands at the time. I was competitive, but many people were running tires as wide as 315s and I wanted to bridge that gap a bit.

So last year I did my first major changes. Which included: 17x10" enkie rpf1 +38 wheels, 255/40/17 Dunlop z2* tires, heidts 2" drop spindles, front coilovers and single adjustable ridetech shocks. The 17" wheels/tires are a great compromise on weight/price and every brand makes the 255/40/17. Also per reading Ron Sutton's suspension theory's, I experimented adding lots of caster by relocating the lower balljoint 2" forward. Caster was about 8 deg now allowing me to use less camber to save the tires on the commuting. With this setup the car was gripping noticeably better on autox. Details here

I love autox again because of the CAM class. It's the do whatever, but be on the right tires class which lets you be creative and update your car in the true pro-touring spirit. One gripe was all my friends were in CAM-T and because of a year and wheelbase rule in 2015 I was regulated to CAM-S. A sub-class intended for corvettes and AC Cobras. I reluctantly raced in it while comparing my times to my friends. Then for 2016 they relaxed the rules a bit. The most important changes were that the year limit was pushed from 1972 to 1989 and the min wheelbase was reduced from 108 to 100"(thanks Fox mustangs and 3rd gen Camaros). So the only thing holding me back was my 96" wheelbase which initiated my "Christmas Break Stretch Goal" project.

My facebook post with the build details here. In summary I "just" moved the front crossmember forward 6".

It was a lot of work. Seriously, a lot. I planned for 2 months so it would go smoothly and it still took twice as long as expected, but it was worth it. Just like Bryant mentioned the car is easier to drive. Stretching it to 101" took the front weight percentage from 56% to 50%. My manual steering feels like it has power assist. I also increased the caster to +11 deg with camber at -1.5. With my spindle Ron would recommend 13deg but I'm just going to drive it for a while as is. I hope to get new tires soon and am excited to see if it works even better.

San Diego is a CAM hot bed and I'm glad to be able to partake in the fun, camaraderie and competition. Tom is postings Race updates here for 2016 if you care to follow along. Tom gives great tire info there.