New Waune Due Subframe?

[cpederslie]

Suprising that there is a significant amount of gear heads wanting to scrap their DSE modified stock frames.

If you are still looking for a new frame: 3,300 for the frame ( wonder if that includes the AGR rack and sway bar?) plus 3,200 for the DSE level 3, plus spindles........Ouch.


I am suprised there isn't some sort of legal issue over making something that uses another company's proprietary product?

:bsjerk: Legal issues? With making a product that uses (promotes) another companies products??? Last time I checked there is nothing illegal about it unless it is directly copying a product that is patent protected. After all how many clip manufacturers are out there that are making clips that uses Ford's MII suspension components or clips that use GM's C4 or C5 components?

I am surpised that companies like DSE and GW haven't approached the chassis guys about building a clip around thier products.

To address some of the other questions, I met with Wayne this weekend to discuss other items and got to talking with him about his new OEM clip. He says the clip, as designed, has the frame rails set narrower, 6" I believe, allowing a 10" wide 275 tire with no problems. The frame is definitely more rigid and stronger than a stock one and simply looks a whole lot cleaner.

As far as cost, it is expected to cost the same as the bare C4 or C5 clip, which is $2,400. With it you get a sway bar (not the Speedway Eng) and the Brewers Steering Arms which Wayne say cost him $200 for the pair. As far as availability, that is yet to be determined. He's up to his eyeballs in C4/C5 clips to get out, cars that he's building and a complete shop move.

Hope this helps clear up any questions.

[67bird]

Got some more good news for everyone. I emailed Wayne about the avalibilty of this frame for applictions with a Pontiac engine. he thinks it is possible.

[mdlackey]

Pontiac engine applications?!! ... if anyone has any influence on him, please ask for this flexibility.

Haven't had to make the jump to a GM crate motor and would like to keep my Poncho with my '67 400 block that I'm building.

Thanks,
Dave

[murtah]

Cpederslie:
Nice smilie, nerd. Obviously you are a "big fan" of Wayne Due.

Point taken on the proprietary issue. I believe DSE is coming out with their own clip that was designed as a brand new sub. Hopefully the price is somewhat reasonable. If it does, then I suspect few people (other than owners who have previously purchased the DSE stage 3 kit) will be buying your buddy's new clip.

I question the market for the new Due clip. Let's say 400 people have bought the DSE stage 3. Perhaps 80 might buy Due's new clip? I doubt that very many people will but his new clip, the DSE stage 3, an AGR rack and ATS spindles due to the extremely high total cost.

Let's say the new Due clip runs 2900 ( I say that because there is a $900 delta between the price of the C4 and C5) DSE stage 3 is 3200, AGR rack 250.00, plus spindles at 550. That's 6,900 before shipping. I believe that makes this sub the most expensive one out there! Good thing brakes are cheap. Oh wait....

So, was this frame built to satisfy the needs of what appears to be a limited audience or does he really think he can sell these to someone looking for a new sub other than a C-5, 21st century, alston, etc?

Perhaps he can turn a decent profit off of selling 40-50 frames?
You tell me.

The only reason I give a sh*t, is because I wish someone would make an entire package, with the same quality and performance capability what we are talking about and price it around 5K, out the door.

[rob07002]

Cpederslie:

The only reason I give a sh*t, is because I wish someone would make an entire package, with the same quality and performance capability what we are talking about and price it around 5K, out the door.

Alston's is probably around that price out the door....

[baz67]

I still do not get why you guys are all pumped about a frame that uses stock parts. Your stock frame will do just fine and save you a few grand. I will give you that it looks cleaner, but stiffer and stronger.... I doubt that. What tests were done to verify that. I would guess the look test. Well it looks stronger and stiffer.

[67bird]

The only thing that is exciting is the fact the Pontiac guys can use a rack without a bunch of work. This isn't possible on the stock frame. Also, with raised port heads (New KRE's and Tiger raised port) there may be more header room. As far as strength testing well that has yet to be seen. I can tell you that my stock frames (yes I have two) both look like my 9 year old nephew welded them together. As far as a cleaner look yes some want that. I mean what does it cost to weld all the seams on a stock frame, grind and sand it all down, then do the DSE mod stuff to it? For some of us it is money well spent. To do the DSE mod I would have to pay someone to weld the mounts due to the fact I don't own the equipment to do it, and also possible ship it somewhere. This all cost money or time. Here again some are willing to pay for this. I think Wayne is finding another way to fill a small void in the market and make some money at it as well.
I will agree with an earlier post, though. If some one could make a repo stock frame they would sell. Especially with the repo bodies coming out. Then companies like DSE and ATS could sell them complete with their suspension components on them ready to go. Just my thoughts.

[cpederslie]

Cpederslie:
Nice smilie, nerd. Obviously you are a "big fan" of Wayne Due.

Point taken on the proprietary issue. I believe DSE is coming out with their own clip that was designed as a brand new sub. Hopefully the price is somewhat reasonable. If it does, then I suspect few people (other than owners who have previously purchased the DSE stage 3 kit) will be buying your buddy's new clip.

I question the market for the new Due clip. Let's say 400 people have bought the DSE stage 3. Perhaps 80 might buy Due's new clip? I doubt that very many people will but his new clip, the DSE stage 3, an AGR rack and ATS spindles due to the extremely high total cost.

Let's say the new Due clip runs 2900 ( I say that because there is a $900 delta between the price of the C4 and C5) DSE stage 3 is 3200, AGR rack 250.00, plus spindles at 550. That's 6,900 before shipping. I believe that makes this sub the most expensive one out there! Good thing brakes are cheap. Oh wait....

So, was this frame built to satisfy the needs of what appears to be a limited audience or does he really think he can sell these to someone looking for a new sub other than a C-5, 21st century, alston, etc?

Perhaps he can turn a decent profit off of selling 40-50 frames?
You tell me.

The only reason I give a sh*t, is because I wish someone would make an entire package, with the same quality and performance capability what we are talking about and price it around 5K, out the door.

Nerd? Now that's funny! I haven't called someone that in probably 15 years. I didn't jump in on this post to get into a pissing match over supply and demand or cost to build. I am certainly a "big fan" of Wayne's as you so put. He is local, has an awesome clean product and has been very helpful with all of my questions. From what I can recall in conversations with Wayne the reason this clip is on the horizon is because of the number of inquiries he's had to build it. If there wasn't the level of interest to justify it I don't think he would have spent the time on design. What I'd like to see is someone do the analysis on what the bare steel clip would have to cost a chassis manuafacturer, such as Alston's or Wayne, in order to get an out the door turn key clip to the consumer for $5K. I think you'd all be surprised when you get to pricing mandrel bent square tubing, steel, laser cutting, fabrication costs, etc. that there would be 0 profit in it without giving up something in return.Just a thought.

[CarlC]

Is it just me, or do I see a single-shear connection on the lower control arm?

[baz67]

Is it just me, or do I see a single-shear connection on the lower control arm?

It is not you Carl. It seems funny that Wayne would do that.

[cpederslie]

The only reason I give a sh*t, is because I wish someone would make an entire package, with the same quality and performance capability what we are talking about and price it around 5K, out the door.

I got to thinking about your comment, wanting a turn key clip for $5K and it dawned on me that Wayne offered one out the door, slap some wheels on it and its a roller for $4K. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3229

So, I called Wayne up and asked what was the deal with that clip. He told me that he had a lot of people asking for a clip under $5K, so he built one. When it was all said and done he was paying more to Art Morrison for the parts to build them than he was making on them and people still bitched it was too expensive. So, he quit offering it as an option and focused on the OEM clip.

Can't please everyone I guess.

[Mean 69]

The only reason I give a sh*t, is because I wish someone would make an entire package, with the same quality and performance capability what we are talking about and price it around 5K, out the door.

I think it depends upon how you define "performance," and I can tell you that making an entire front setup, frame included, for under $5k is a very tough proposition. Unfortunately, when you factor in all of the expenses necessary to support building such a setup, as in fixed costs, labor, insurance, etc, it gets spendy really quick. Bigger companies are better suited, but they almost always miss the mark in terms of product benfits, and usually don't listen to what the market is telling them relative to smaller companies.

So, back to the word "performance." What is it you (you meaning anyone, not pointing a finger at any particular individual by any means) want out of your setup? Do you want it to handle better than a stock car? That's easy. Do you want it to pull down some coll numbers on the skidpad and through the cones? That's pretty easy too. Does it need to look really pimp? That's easy. Do you need it to do all of these things at the same time? Honestly, what many of the folks are stating about modifying a stock front frame is completely true, and satisfies all of the above.

Now, if you define performance in more stringent terms, well, that's a whole bunch different. Suppose you want really good roll center migration characteristics, sufficient camber gain, good caster behavior under roll/steering, very small side scrub, very low scrub radius, minimal bump steer throughout the usable suspension travel, the right amount of anti-dive, short turning radius, ideal ackerman, and enough room to fit big tires, all at the same time, without having to move the engine way back or lift it up, well that's a completely different story. In fact, it hasn't been done, yet. And unfortunately, the stark reality is that solving these issues is not a $5k proposition. It's a heck of a lot harder than grabbing an off the shelf rack and pinion unit, and some late model Corvette pieces and building a frame around them, I can factually state that without reservation.

If you want a really cool handling car on a budget, listen the dudes that have successfully modified their stock front setups, they/we speak the truth. If you have money, do most of your performance driving parked at the local car show, and want something that looks really cool, then knock yourself out with basically any of the stuff that's on the market. But don't think for a microsecond that your car is "really" ready to beat the poopy out of *insert your favorite performance car name here* in the handling arena.

Mark

[wendell]

Amen Brother!

I'm going to need one hell of a subframe to catch that turbo Noble...

[Mean 69]

I'm going to need one hell of a subframe to catch that turbo Noble...

No, honest! Just look in the Super Chevy magazine and buy one of everything that advertises performance benefits, especially those that have no technical backup to strengthen (or even attempt to explain) their claims! Bolt all of that stuff on, and buy a huge supercharged rat motor, cross drill your rotors, all that other good stuff, and you'll be able to whoop it good.

Or not.

Sorry, I just have this serious issue with companies promoting products that they themselves do even understand how they truly work. Just a rant. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

(I saw an Enzo, and a Carrera GT the other day on the highway, it's my new goal in life to make my 3400 lb. Camaro whip them both, even though both are the complete state of the art, carbon fiber, mid-engine, untouchable rockets that they are. Well, maybe I'll just appreciate them from afar).

M

[rob07002]

(I saw an Enzo, and a Carrera GT the other day on the highway, it's my new goal in life to make my 3400 lb. Camaro whip them both, even though both are the complete state of the art, carbon fiber, mid-engine, untouchable rockets that they are. Well, maybe I'll just appreciate them from afar).

M

Was Deitrich or Hans driving? LOL!!!

[wendell]

Mark,
Judging by the rate of speed that the Noble was traveling when I saw it last, I'm going to need a LOT of powder coating to catch him.

As for your goal, of catching the Enzo... It's going to take some mighty shiny wheels and possibly a new sway bar.

[madmax]

I spoke with Wayne today.

He said that his quoting the C5 price was incorrect - in his mind the C4 and C5 bare steel frames are about the same - but the C5 has more widgets that he has to buy.

The real price should be about $2200, and closer to $2000 with a 1" swaybar and all the steering arms.

That makes it A LOT more attractive to me. I already have a bunch of parts and an original subframe that would have to be replaced anyway because it has been hacked and tweaked. In my case consider:

Old subframe with DSE coilover mod:

$200 New frame
$800 Power rack
$3250 Speed kit 3
= ~$4300.

Wayne Due frame:

$2200 Frame
$1200 Control Arms
$400 QA1 Shocks
$250 Rack
= ~$4050.

A brand new, 10"-wide-wheel-accepting frame for about $4k is pretty attractive to me, especially since I need a new frame anyway.

Don't hold me to these numbers; there may be widgets that I missed here and there... but you get where I am coming from. If the frame had been another grand more, than, hell, I wouldn't have cared for it.


-Max

[ProdigyCustoms]

Oh but Max, You have the hook up so your OK! Wayne called me today, your all set.

[murtah]

Max: Now he is talking.
2,000 to 2,200 is more like it.

My earlier pissing and moaning was based off of the prices he has for the C4 and 5 on his website. I couldn't understand how he was going to sell the new frame to people who had not already bought the DSE stage 3.

Like you, I need a brand new frame as the one I had was off a wrecked car. I was going to keep searching for a old frame but I also have a thing for power racks.

If a few manufacturers group priced some of their spindles, control arms and coil overs for Due's frame we could then really be on to something.

Question is will they?

[baz67]

How about old frame:

Guldstrand mod- free
Lowering springs- 150
Shocks- 400
new steering box- 400
=950

Can I have my 3100 in change please?

Now if you want more caster add 500 for the UCAs