The General Is Dead !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rob07002]

I know I'll probably get alot of heat for this, but I have NEVER been so disappointed in being a General Motors devotee in my entire life. I just finished watching "Extreme Mustang, Back to the Track", on the Discovery Channel and they did a show on the new 2005 Grand Am race Mustang, WOW, the car is BAD!!!! It sounds, handles, stops and looks as good as it gets. WHAT THE HELL IS GM DOING!!!!! Is there anything for a GM guy to get excited about? I mean besides the vette ( if you want to spend $45k+ ) what is in the pipeline for us to look forward to? The 04 GTO sucks ( styling wise ) Ford and Dodge are kicking the ***** out of the Big Guy. With the new Mustang, GT, and next gen Cobra coming out, as well as the Dodge Magnum, and future Charger, even the new 300 looks tough, GM looks real bad. Even the imports and Europeans and leaving the General in the dust ( Z350, WRX, RX8, BMW Z4, M3, 6 series, etc, etc ) what we do. I would actually consider a new stang for my next ride ( a first for me ) I have bought nothing but GM products since I was 15 ( i'm 31 now ) and I am VERY sadened by the direction they are going in. Are there sunnier skies ahead? Well please let us know. Why all the secrecy? Give us a hint. Please!!!!! I'm not a Detroit insider so maybe I'm wasting my time with this rant, but I don't see anything out there for the muscle car fan. Do you expect me to believe the Caddy CTS-V is a car guys car... Please!!!



Well I think it is time to do something about it. I propose a petition that will end up on some pencil pushers desk that will get his attention. With all the money we spend on our passion ( new cars, aftermarket goodies ) our concerns are nothing to laugh at. Hit them where it hurts, the wallet. I'm sure if all the people on this board expressed their intention on buying a Non-GM vehicle as their next purchase, they would pay attention!!!! Where is the Camaro? Where is the Firebird? Where is the next head turning outside the box GM product. All of us feel that their car is an extension of their personalty. We all want to feel alittle special driving down the road. We all want to stand out alittle at the stop light. We are the ones who have placed such icons as the Vette, GTO, Camaro, Firebird in the very fabric of America, not the commuter. "Gee let me see, Hey honey should we get the LS1 SS Camaro with 330 hp, or the minivan", I DON"T THINK SO!!!!

We are in very dark times, and we must let the corporate bean counters who have never known the pleasure of an open-headered Big Block screaming at 6000 rpm and 140 mph know that we are not pleased at all.

[cjhutch]

Rob, I feel your pain, but honestly I could care less. My firebird is the only GM product in my household. I do have to say I'm thinking about buying a Solstice when they come out and supercharging it. Now before you go all buckwild on me just listen. I do believe that loyalty is a good thing, but in this day and age if you're looking for something in particular there is a car for you. For the family guy who has to carry around kids and all their stuff, but still wants some power under his foot there's the Dodge Magnum. For the person who wants to just cruise around and enjoy luxury there are countless number of cars. For the person who doesn't have a boatload of money but still wants a cool looking car there's the PT Cruiser. For the working man who needs to carry his hardware during the week and tow on the weekends there's the Ford Lightning. I think you catch my drift. What I'm saying is if you don't like what one automaker is doing go to another. By all means I still think you should express your displeasure with GM, but I wouldn't wait for a reply if I were you. Automakers are searching for efficency and adaptable platforms and it's going to be that way for a long time. I have a lot more to say on this subject, but I'll leave space for others to make their replies. In closing I would like to say that if people wouldn't bash everything that comes out great things can happen(ie.Subaru WRX) .

[zbugger]

You know, I was wondering the same thing for a little while. Then, I came to look at what the rest of GM is doing. Look at Saturn. They are attacking the import market with the Redline series. Look at Caddilac. They are going extreme on the performance scene attacking the european scene. I love the CTS-V, and they seem to be just getting started. Oh the insanity!!!! I think they finally started to spread it around. I think the Chevrolet brand managers need to get into a meeting to catch back up. And I don't mean just sticking SS badges on everything. They need to back up the image.

[cjhutch]

Allen, do you know when the Saturn Redline coupe is coming out. I want to modify a compact car soooo bad.

[socalfandabodys]

The cts v is not a car guys car. That thing is bad ass. Its got all the pro touring stuff.
17 inch wheels
14 inch brakes
400 horsepower
6 speed
awesome seats
good looks
as far as saturn goes. very good around town car. I drive my daughters l300 and that thing is a little bat out of hell. It beats the v-6 mustangs

[rob07002]

cj, and socal - you guys are missing the point. I understand what you're saying but, if your a Ford guy then you have tons of choices for you depending on your preference and you don't have to go to another company. Like muscle cars - buy the Mustang, want something more exotic - get the GT, feel the need to be noticed - get the Cobra, got kids - buy a Windstar, etc, etc. Same goes for Dodge guys. What does a GM guy have...... a $50k Vette or $60k+ CTS-V. As for a saturn, your right it probably will hold its own against the imports but NONE of these are modern muscle..... You will be able to get a Mustang for under $30k and smile all day long....

[Ralph LoGrasso]

The Camaro is coming back in '07. The firebird "has had its day", according to the press :(. The funny thing is the 4th Gen LS1 SS will still pretty much take down any car that you've mentioned, the only cars on your list that will take it (non-gm) are the '03 Cobra, and some of those bmws, but think about how much more they cost. The '05 GTO is getting the LS2, and puts down about 350 to the wheels. The new stang looks okay to me, the concept was much better, but they're not all that fast. I saw a vid of a 1/4 mile run, and it was in the mid-high 13s, I'm sure others have seen the vid, it was all over the web(I think i saw it on ls1tech). The new Mustang is nice though, but the original concept was just plain awesome. Hopefully GM will start putting out some more performance oriented vehicles.

[DCx]

I have a 01 cobra and it is bad ass! I love the seats! Ford kinda screwed up in the low end torque depot on this car but thats ok, dont think you will pass me when I wind out 3rd gear. Is it odd that I can take second to 75mph at 7100rpm then max third out at almost 130? Ran a 13.6 with a cat back and the car only set me back 19,000. Been driving the heck out of it and it doesnt even have 30,000 on the ticker. Id say ford has a good thing going for them. Look at the after market for these cars! copare that to the LT1 and Ls1 aftermarket. The main draw back to the modular motor i think is the lack of push rod simplicity. You gotta buy 2 or 4 cams not much room for aftermarket heads and stroker kits kinda suck, but you can change that with a blower. Seems like there are more companies making superchargers for the mustang then anything else. All in all I am a mustang guy. I had an Lt1 camaro and it sounded like a work truck with the $500 borla cat back I put on it. Buddy of mine has an 04 GT with flowmasters and it is sweet! loud and deep. Also my cobras got indipendent rear, 13 inch brakes, 17" wheels and awesome seats. I just feel like GM is screwing up. Ill be first in line to test drive a new stang. That White one on the show looked sweet huh? dreaming of a new white mustang....

[Ralph LoGrasso]

DCx, I didnt meant to start a bench racing session here, I was commenting on the cars that Rob listed in his post. I'm not saying any one car is better than the next, just commenting on late model GM performance.

He did not list an '01 Cobra in his post. My friend has a '98 and it's an awesome car, but the shifter posistion is weird, it's too far forward. Other than that, great car. In fact, I almost bought a '99 Cobra a few years back.

In reguards to the 4th gen LS1 SS taking out almost anything on that list, I was talking in reguards to 1/4 mile performance, which seems to be the craze with new cars these days. Bone stock '02 SS or WS6 with a really good driver can turn a 12.9 ET. 13.1-13.5ish is more the norm from what I've read though.

130mph from 3rd gear is pretty impressive.

[DanT69]

I may be in the minority but I have similar feelings about almost all new cars, except for several I could never dream of affording (GT40 and the new C6 'Vette) the auto makers right now have virtually nothing I really want . Some make cars I can appreciate but would never pay money to own one. Especially the American auto makers which I blame the lack of any worthy cars coming from the big three on SUVs and the focus on them for sometime now. Oh well, I still have my vintage iron and maybe someday I can build myself a "new" car with the new reproduction bodies and be driving a "new" hemi cuda (with the new 5.7l Hemi).

[68RallySport]

Running a 13.6 your mudstain wont keep up!!!

[rob07002]

Ralph, in response to your reply. I completely agree that an LS1 SS would probably spank most of the cars I mentioned, I am not questioning GM's drivtrain division, the stuff they are coming out with is truly inspiring. However, do we all forget what a muscle car is " a compact-midsize rear wheel car with powerful engine and bulletproof tranny connected to a posi. Minimal creature comfort and maybe a cool sound system. Meaning ALL BUSINESS!!!!" Can you confirm the return of the Camaro, what will it look like? I'll tell you this if Chevy throws an LS2 and T56 into a freakin saturn, slap on some Camaro badges and tells us here is the new Camaro now BUY, BUY , BUY.... They have lost me forever. Same goes for the 05 GTO. Its not just about performance, its about the entire package, Styling, performance, etc, etc. There is nothing fresh in the GM pipeline, Where are the next gen Harley Earls, Jim Wagners....there over at Ford and Dodge thats where. There needs to be a real shakeup at the executive level over at the General. I feel the current GM performance cars as far as styling and uniqueness are an insult to my intelligence. DON"T SLAP SS BADGES ON A FREAKIN GROCERY GETTER AND TELL ME ITS MODERN MUSCLE!!!! In closing maybe the next gen muscle will be homegrown, with the repop Camaro bodies out and others to come, I'll be first in line to buy a NEW 69 Camaro....and if the money starts shifting in that direction, well I think the General will get the hint. Watch them panic then

[XcYZ]

The CTS-V is not a car guys car? Wanna explain that one to me?

[SHANE 73Z]

I was at the local Chevrolet dealership the other day checking out a new Colorado. When the sales manager proceeded to inform me that the best deal they could work would cost me an extra $100 a month over what I wanted to pay, he asked me if I would be interested in a different (ie less expensive) vehicle. I asked him if he was talking about the 2 Cavaliers out front with the stupid a$$ body kits and chrome wheels..............

I proceeded to tell him VERY loudly what I thought of GMs current line up of vehicles and that the only way they were going to sell me anything other than a truck was if they would sell me a vette for $400 a month.

Im still driving my Dakota.....................

[SHANE 73Z]

XCYZ,

The CTS-V is a car guys car. But how many twenty-something car guys can afford a 60K car? Maybe if I move back in with my parents and sell a kidney, I can scrounge up a down payment.

I think the price range being discussed here is the 25K-35K. What does GM have to offer there? Hell the lame-a$$ Silverado SS was 40K, the GTO is OK if you want it every option and since when does a manual tranny command a $900 premium over the automatic model????? When GM thinks we are stupid enough to pay for it!

Shane

[rob07002]

Scott, the Caddy CTS-V is not a car guys car! and I'll explain.

1) How many hard working modest car enthusiasts can afford to plunk down $60k+ on a car?

2) Was a Caddy ever a muscle car?

3) Do you need DVD/Navigation/heated seats/ Blah Blah Blah, to have an enjoyable driving experience?

4) The new Bently has over 500 hp, does that make it a muscle car too?

[Steve Chryssos]

Rob,
Your complaints are well founded. The SSR provides a window into GM's decision making process. It's a car/truck thingie that does nothing well. Impotent as a hot rod and unsuitable as a hauler. Too little too late. Somehow this impractical underachiever made it to production. You wonder what the decision makers were thinking: "Okay...This is what we're gonna do. Let's kill the F-Body and release the SSR..." :rolleyes5 Good idea!

I will say that I applaud GM for releasing the GTO. The car gives me hope that GM can think outside the box. You gotta admit--Like it or not, GM got creative with the Holden deal. Furthermore, I fully expect to see some cool looking, modified GTO's at SEMA this year. In fact, if I like the mods enough, I will take my wallet out. Cheap, leftover GTO's are easy to find.
/Steevo

[XcYZ]

LOL, you guys are funny. So if the CTS-V doesn't fit your ideas of a true car guys car, does a pickup, a blazer, or a late model car make a Pro-Touring car? I mean, after all, we are talking pre-conceieved notions of cars that fit labels and labels that fit cars.

[Fluid Power]

Shane,

The reason they (GM) charges more for manual tranny's is simple economics. Nobody buys them. For example, Lets say GM is building 20,000 GTOs for 05. The statistical data shows 85% of those cars will be bought with auto trannys the remaining 15% will be sold as manuals. They know this because of the incredible amount of data and information that is gathered, researched and studied. GM buys 17,000 automatic transmissions (85% of 20000) and 3000 manual ones. Guess which one is more expensive to buy? If you picked manual trannys, you now understand basic supply/demand. It is not a big conspiracy theory as you might believe, just simple business. Corvettes are priced the same way. The old dudes who buy those don't want to row the gears.

The thing that really gets me in these discussions are that we are the minority in the vast ocean of the car world. Meaning that most people can give a crap about cars. To them it is just a mode of transportation. People buy those cars with SS badges because they don't care that it is not what it once stood for. While it offends me and others (in this group especially) most don't care. While it would be nice to have GM put a new camaro or redesigned GTO to do battle with the mustangs I have to believe that the largest automotive company in the world probably has a grip on things.....

Darren

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Rob,

I can't confirm what the Camaro will look like in '07, I got my info from an article in PHR. There are a few renderings floating around the net that are supposidly very close to what it'll look like, and I really hope so, because the renderings are nice.