Does anyone know Mark Stielow?

[Steve25]

I have been reading about all the camaro projects that Mark Stielow has embarked upon. I was just wondering if anyone knows what his opinion is about the thrasher camaro he built and the mule camaro that he built. Does anyone know if he was disappointed with the front suspension on the mule. He has tested the stock subframe with just about as many modifications as can be done to it. He also had a chance to work with the new Wayne Due subframe. I was just wondering if anyone knows what he thinks performs the best. If anyone knows how I could ask him myself I would be very appreciative. Also, if anyone really knows his opinion, please let me know.

[zbugger]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Hey Charlie, wanna take this one?

[TonyL]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Hey Charlie, wanna take this one?

my thoughts exactly.

actually. Mark? do you wanna take this one?

[Steve25]

Does Mark Stielow post on this website? If he does, please offer any suggestions! I have been reading the back issues of every magazine that he was featured in just trying to see if I could get a hint of what he thought about the Mule front suspension compared to the thrasher. Please help me!
My wife adds that if Mark does have any suggestions to please post them because it would save me from reading all his features when I should be sleeping. I only get about an hour of sleep every night because I can't stop trying to figure out which suspension Mark thinks is best. I guess you could say that I idolize him because he has built every car that I have ever wanted to. My dreams are of building the camaro that can win the one lap of America race.

[zbugger]

He has, on occasion. My hope is that Charlie Lillard chimes in here. He's owned both cars, and he could tell you what Mark thinks. I could have driven both, but he would have had me arrested. So all I did was look and not touch like the good little boy I am.

[TonyL]

check out the source for my avatar.


if you have read up on mark's work, just realize that thrasher was built to race with then current, best technology. The mule was supposed to be a refinement of that.

the thrasher is currently undergoing a "refreshing" and is in marks possesion agian.

[Steve25]

Was he impressed with the refinement? I have made refinements to engines that I just knew would work great and they were just terrible. I wonder if his refinements worked great. Also, how come Mark didn't try the one lap with the Mule camaro? Do you think Mark would do something all together different with the front suspension of a new camaro that would be even better and decently cost effective?

[dennis68]

Just a few words of advice....although Mark is a very talented builder, don't be too quick to brush off the advice of the rest of this board. There are many here who have much more experience building real world road course type suspensions than Mark.

Try posting exactly what you hope to acheive (realistically) and what kind of budget you have. Do you intend to do the work yourself? Do you have any fabrication experience? Do you have tools/welder or access to them?

[Steve25]

Please don't think that I don't value the advice from anyone else on this board. Most the people on this forum are heads and tales above me in knowledge on suspension design. I would value the opinion of anyone who would be so kind as to offer their advice. The reason for wanting to know Mark's opinion is because I knew that he had the chance to test the suspension designs that were used on both the Thasher and the Mule. If anyone else has done first hand testing, please offer your advice. Thanks in advance.
My budget is in the $3000 range for the front suspension, but no more than that. I do have a welder and I will do all of the work myself. I am a mechanic and love to fabricate. This is the most fun of the camaro project. I want to put everything together so that I can have the great feeling of accomplishment that comes with building your own high performance car.

[TonyL]

In order to bring to bear the knowledge base that is this forum, go ahead and start a new thread, with a title like "Need advice on building a race ready front suspension for my 69" or something along those lines. Most of our hard core guys will skim over a thread calling out just one expert.

**edit** as far as I know, after the mule got done, they couldnt bring themselves to thrash on it in 1 lap. It was just too nice. ( I could be wrong, but remember reading something like that here.)

[Steve25]

I remember reading that also. It was from popular hot rodding. It was just after the camaro was finished that Mark said this, but I didn't really think he meant it. You would think that he would want to test his knew ideas to see if they really worked. If anyone has any advise about front suspensions, but doesn't want to say anything because they don't want to make any manufacture mad that may read the posts; please just e-mail me at [email protected]

[trapin]

Steve...if your budget is no more than $3000, than a Wayne Due sub-frame is not in your future. They are nice systems...but there have been many people in the Pro-Touring community that have mopped up race circuits using a stock subframe with improvements to the original suspension. One that comes to mind (and is a regular here) is Dave Pozzi.

My advice?

- Weld the seams on your stock sub-frame......free
- Guldstrand Modification..............................free
- Global West Upper Control Arms.................$499
- Koni Adjustable Shocks.............................$200
- Addco 1" Sway Bar..................................$109
- Hotchkis Coil Springs................................$163
- Steering Box (I'm gussing you'll go AGR).......$283
Total............................................. ..........$1254

The rest you're going to need for you're brakes and misc parts like tie rods, bolts, idler arm, pitman, any stripping or powder-coating services. And the $1746 you have left over might not even cover that. Front suspensions are killer, bro.

[69CamaroLS1]

Mark Stielow........ My only Super Hero

[Steve25]

If I may ask, what name is Mark Stielow registered under. If Mark did reply, I might not even know it was him.

[ryans67deuce]

If I may ask, what name is Mark Stielow registered under. If Mark did reply, I might not even know it was him.

Ummm... try "Stielow".

[Steve25]

Everyone has been very helpful. If Charle would chime in and tell what his opinion between the front suspension of the Thrasher and Mule is I would love to hear. Also, if someone did know what Mark's opinion between the two suspension was, please chime in also. It looks like my best way to go is to modify my original subframe and then when my car is done and if it isn't adequate I will make my own full blown racing suspension, but I will always be curious on what Mark's observations were.

[Stielow]

From my experience the stock front sub on a first gen. car can be made to work very well. The biggest problem with the 1st gen. F&X- bodies front suspension is the stock front spindle is too short and it is rear steer.

My first Camaro I added big tires at all four corners and quickly discovered deflection over steer in the front suspension. This is caused by soft upper and lower control arm bushings, grippy tires and rigid rear steering system. This makes the car very non-linear in corners and darty. I fixed the deflection steer problem by installing very stiff (Solid) control arm bushings. Unfortunately I didn’t fix the camber gain problem (short spindle) before cashing this car and its replacement.

On my White 69 I deiced to fix the camber gain and roll center problem. I made new taller front spindles by welding two together to make a taller spindle. This worked fine but the stock bearings would look worn after each One Lap. But that car has ran in One Lap 5 times and finished as high as 4th over all.

Next I built the Red Witch. It had a taller spindle off of a 1987 Vett with stock length upper a-arm and a lengthen lower arm. That spindle is a tad too tall and I am reworking the car right now.

Then came the Thrasher. I built a unique front knuckle that accepted a C-5 Corvette bolt on hub and brake system. This seemed to work the best, but it also required a new drag link to fix the bump steer. I raced this car in One Lap in 2000 and was doing OK until I spun a rod bearing at Sebring. This car has a great feel on the road and the track a very nice driving car, but does get upset over un-smooth road surfaces

Not to leave well enough alone I purchased a Wayne Due front sub (Back when Art was still alive). The fab work on the front clip look great, it looked like a great part, light weight and used Vett chassis parts to boot. The problem that I found was the packaging. The rack need to be higher to help bump steer and that drives the rack into the oil pan. Also they recommend using a Mustang II rack and I never like the steering feel from the Mustang II rack. For the Mule we had a custom shortened C-4 rack made to fix the bump steer and the steering shudder problem that the Mule had.

On the track the Mule works great with the new front clip and the 5 link rear suspension. I have no experience with The Wayne Due front clip on a car with leaf springs. I do think that the Wayne Due front clip is not as stiff or heavy as an OE piece so I tied it into the structure of the Mule with down bars through the dash. Of all the cars that I have built the Mule rides the best and handles the best. But I’m still not thrilled with the steering feel. We have had 2 racks in the car and still don’t have it perfect. With the full coil suspension and all the light parts the car rides great even on the 18 inch rubber that is on the car.

I have the Thrasher back now and plan to retune the chassis this summer from what I have learned over the last 3 years tuning GM’s car at the track. This is a very capable car and should work even better with some tweaks.

I have not looked at all the new stuff on the market but I have had great success with:

Global West
Detroit Speed
Hotchkis
Herb Adams

One thing to keep in mind a chassis is a system of parts that need to be tuned, try to stay with one supplier to start off with and follow there recommendations so the car is safe.

I spend up to a full year at GM developing a new chassis for a car and travel to many tracks to optimize the package. So be patient and start with a companies “package” and start tuning it from there.

Good luck

Stielow

[ryans67deuce]

... For the Mule we had a custom shortened C-4 rack made to fix the bump steer and the steering shudder problem that the Mule had......

Mark,

If you have time, I'd like to know how this was done, and if you know of a shop with the capabilities to do this. I have a WD clip on my ChevyII and need a narrowed Rack for it. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ryan

[Zefhix]

I spend up to a full year at GM developing a new chassis for a car and travel to many tracks to optimize the package. So be patient and start with a companies “package” and start tuning it from there.

Good luck

Stielow

Mark, would that be the Cobalt SS? I heard you had a lot to do with the suspension on that car.

[trapin]

On the track the Mule works great with the new front clip and the 5 link rear suspension.

Well now....for all the nay-sayers, there's your proof that The Mule has indeed stretched her legs on a road course.

We can finally put this puppy to bed.