'95 F-150 track ready street beast

[Sbeck09]

Ok guys...time to share my ongoing learning experience and the cause of the delay in updates.

So after I built the new control arms I reached out to some people that are far more knowledgeable and experienced than myself on suspension design and theory. Doesn't take much to know more than me, but it's important that I get blunt feedback now so any changes can me made easily.

The main discussion was related to this:



Look specifically at the upper and lower control arm mounts on the spindle side. Some of you already see the concern, but I learned something very important this past week. I went to a lot of trouble to verify that my upper and lower Kingpin angles were the same, but I didn't think about them needing to be along the same plane (meaning can draw a straight line through both top and bottom points). In simple terms this causes the steering the feel worse the more you push it. I'm basically asking the spindle to turn in 2 different planes at one time. I do understand geometry well enough to know I should revise this.

OK, so I looked at some different spindle options ranging from $400 up to $2200 for the pair. I want to keep the 5x4.5 Mustang bolt pattern so the front matches the rear and I have access to Mustang parts which are plentiful and usually a little less expensive. I know that these strut type spindles are the wrong tool for the job, but I keep wanting to find a way to make the upper mount line up better before I abandon what I've done. It's already got new hubs/bearings, the OEM 14" Brembos are great and only $700, and I already have these. As you can tell cost is definitely a factor. I'm thinking I'll try to make a better upper control arm mount first and if it doesn't work then the ridetech spindles ($400 option) will do. I did also consider Crown Vic spindles, but the big brake kit is over $2000 and it has almost no real support aside from factory rebuild parts at Autozone.

Thanks to Lance's persistence I downloaded a 10 day trial of Performance Trends Suspension Analyzer. Definitely not for someone that can't measure accurately or understand what's happening with the suspension.



It unfortunately can't tell that my Kingpin is misaligned, but everything else seems to show that it will have pretty decent geometry in spite of how crude I've built it. I didn't see any binding either.

As always, I welcome suggestions or discussion about this and alternatives. We all learn together, we all grow together. This is what my thread is about.

[RMMiller]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1381...apter-bracket/

[Sbeck09]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1381...apter-bracket/

That's actually where my original idea to try this came from. Griggs Racing offered an option just like it for my spindles. I can't find a photo of either at an angle that let's me see their kingpin angle. So I take it your vote is to give this a try?

[RMMiller]

That's actually where my original idea to try this came from. Griggs Racing offered an option just like it for my spindles. I can't find a photo of either at an angle that let's me see their kingpin angle. So I take it your vote is to give this a try?

I don't know, will they fit the spindles you have? Only reason I know about them is I have a set of SN95 spindles and I stumbled on to them when I was considering a home brewed strut setup for my Maverick.

[Sbeck09]

I don't know, will they fit the spindles you have? Only reason I know about them is I have a set of SN95 spindles and I stumbled on to them when I was considering a home brewed strut setup for my Maverick.

I really believe that its has to work at least as good as any other double wishbone spindle off the shelf. These companies have massive reputations on the line centered around performance vehicle handling. My brain is convinced there is a way for this to work if they can do it. No risk no, reward I suppose.

[Styx1967]

Have you seen these yet? Might not help, just looked back and saw yours are newer.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1381...apter-bracket/

They also make a Pin Drive version of these that look like it would reduce the king pin angle if you don't mind switching to SN-95 uprights. Not sure it would be enough but might be worth looking at.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1250...apter-bracket/

Otherwise, the only other Ford uprights that I can think of are Mustang II (too small?), MN-12 Thunderbird (too tall?), or, as you said, Crown Vic. If you do the 1994 or 1995 to 1997 Thunderbird uprights you can use SN-95 brakes.

Also, here is a link to a video on a brake kit for the crown vic front. He starts talking about them at about 9 minutes. The info to find them is in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1dlM74JMhk

[Sbeck09]

I really hate having to concede defeat, but I think it's time.

I spent the majority of last week at Arizona Bike Week and blew off responsibility since I needed a break from everything. Don't think my mind wasn't on the truck because it very much was. I severely underestimated the difficulty of designing and fabricating an entire front suspension. And I'm not whining. I'm so proud of what I have learned so far. But as a result I am seeing the downsides to using the wrong components.

Check out this photo:



That Rule represents the Kingpin axis if it was perfectly in line (the grove is the actual center-line). I can easily see how the struts fall along that plane when installed, but it presents a very difficult hurdle when adapting to a real upper control arm. Ideally I want my upper and lower mounting holes spaced about 11.5-12 inches apart on the spindle. In order to have clearance for the bolt to move with the upper uniball I would need to move to upper mount up to about the 14 inch mark. That's a BIG change in roll center and camber gain. So I believe it may be time to lay these strut spindles to rest and go with a real double wishbone spindle.

Now that brings me to a dilemma. If I was running a GM bolt pattern on the hubs I could pretty much have anything I want for spindles, but I'm running the 5x4.5 Ford bolt pattern and I don't want to change it as I want the entire truck to be the same (remember I have the complete S550 Mustang rear end). So I looked at a few options as I mentioned before. So far I see where you can get a different hub for the Corvette spindles, but I can't work with that upper ball joint. So those are out. The thing that keeps coming up is the ridetech tall spindles. I can't find any measurements on these so I suppose I'll need to call and ask nicely. These seem to be a solid option for the money with plenty of reasonably priced brake kits. I'd try to make Crown Vic spindles work, but the brake kit is just too expensive.

So that's where I'm at. The engine was completed today and I worked on the frame a little, but nothing to show in pics. I'll keep working on other areas while I workout what to do for spindles.

Anyone have any bright ideas or further input here? Feel free to share. I could use the input right now.

[Project Bike Truck]

Could you re-drill the GM hubs?

But if not jump on the ridetech ones. Do it right with quality stuff now and enjoy less drama later?

[cornfedbill]

Okay, I admit I am no expert. However, you are mounting the spindle assembly on two spherical joints. The ball has no physical "axis". That is what makes ball joints and spherical bearings so good.

What exactly is the issue with the misalignment of the two ball joint taper axes? The suspension cannot tell kinematically. The spindle will pivot about an axis through both balls regardless of the location of the mounting taper.

Can somebody explain why your current design will not work so that I, as an engineer, can understand the problem? I can understand if you are trying to reduce your kingpin inclination. But if that is not your goal. Your design should work.

[Sbeck09]

Could you re-drill the GM hubs?

But if not jump on the ridetech ones. Do it right with quality stuff now and enjoy less drama later?

I could, but I have to beware of the diameter of the center of the hub. I'm definitely thinking about that as an option, but I hate having to buy new parts just to pay to revise them. You'd think there would be an off-the-shelf option. You hit the nail on the head with the doing stuff right the first time. That's why I'm beating up this part of the build now so I'm not cutting it apart later. The ridetech spindles are proven in this environment so that's a big plus.

They also make a Pin Drive version of these that look like it would reduce the king pin angle if you don't mind switching to SN-95 uprights. Not sure it would be enough but might be worth looking at.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/1250...apter-bracket/

Otherwise, the only other Ford uprights that I can think of are Mustang II (too small?), MN-12 Thunderbird (too tall?), or, as you said, Crown Vic. If you do the 1994 or 1995 to 1997 Thunderbird uprights you can use SN-95 brakes.

Also, here is a link to a video on a brake kit for the crown vic front. He starts talking about them at about 9 minutes. The info to find them is in the description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1dlM74JMhk

The MII stuff is known to have some geometry issues of it's own when used like I plan this truck to be, MN-12 spindles are crazy tall, and if I could find a more budget friendly way to get 14" brakes on the CV spindles that would probably be the way to go. Thanks for linking that video. I watched his channel when I was getting ready to do my IRS install. I wonder if I could fit a 4-6 piston vette caliper on the same setup he did. That would be legit.

Okay, I admit I am no expert. However, you are mounting the spindle assembly on two spherical joints. The ball has no physical "axis". That is what makes ball joints and spherical bearings so good.

What exactly is the issue with the misalignment of the two ball joint taper axes? The suspension cannot tell kinematically. The spindle will pivot about an axis through both balls regardless of the location of the mounting taper.

Can somebody explain why your current design will not work so that I, as an engineer, can understand the problem? I can understand if you are trying to reduce your kingpin inclination. But if that is not your goal. Your design should work.

OK, I have been having the hardest time explaining this when asked the same question before. Essentially you are asking the spindle to rotate on 2 different axis at one time. This creates changing geometry throughout the range of movement. So your camber and caster isn't linear, it's always changing at different rates. What I was told is the steering feels like it loses the front end "a bit" and falls over on the outside front corner.

One person said it this way to me, "When the pivot axis of the UBJ & LBJ don't line up perfectly, the spindle doesn't pivot on the KPI axis cleanly. It actually pivots on the two different ball joint axis. This makes the outside spindle (and therefore the outside front corner of the car) drop to a degree as it is steering. It makes it hard to impossible to keep a happy tire contact patch. It wants to roll over on the sidewall which unsettles the the front suspension."

[cornfedbill]

OK, I have been having the hardest time explaining this when asked the same question before. Essentially you are asking the spindle to rotate on 2 different axis at one time. This creates changing geometry throughout the range of movement. So your camber and caster isn't linear, it's always changing at different rates. What I was told is the steering feels like it loses the front end "a bit" and falls over on the outside front corner.

One person said it this way to me, "When the pivot axis of the UBJ & LBJ don't line up perfectly, the spindle doesn't pivot on the KPI axis cleanly. It actually pivots on the two different ball joint axis. This makes the outside spindle (and therefore the outside front corner of the car) drop to a degree as it is steering. It makes it hard to impossible to keep a happy tire contact patch. It wants to roll over on the sidewall which unsettles the the front suspension."

Okay, I understand what you are saying, but keep thinking about this (or overthinking it). I may just be hard-headed.

You have two balls that form an axis. The balls have no axis of rotation, only a single point. As long as you don't exceed the limits of motion, they should work.

If you are referring to having too much kingpin inclination, I can understand how that will make things get weird. You will be turning the wheel into and out of the ground so to speak.

Have you looked into Howe Racing or other circle track spindle options? They have some interesting options. Mopar midsize and AMC cars had the same Ford bolt pattern. Many there are some Mopar options. We have a few Mopar guys here that may have some suggestions.

This looks like my front subframe modifications. Once I cut into it, I had to change another thing, then another, then another. I feel like the woman who swallowed a fly. I'm now looking at eating a horse.

[Sbeck09]

Have you looked into Howe Racing or other circle track spindle options? They have some interesting options. Mopar midsize and AMC cars had the same Ford bolt pattern. Many there are some Mopar options. We have a few Mopar guys here that may have some suggestions.

This looks like my front subframe modifications. Once I cut into it, I had to change another thing, then another, then another. I feel like the woman who swallowed a fly. I'm now looking at eating a horse.

I have not. I don't know anything about that stuff so I wasn't even sure where to start.

Yeah this has kinda been like that. Every time I design one part of the front setup it negatively affects another area and then I have to redo it all. Now I've basically got the arms setup where they work great, but my spindles are failing me. Hopefully this is the last hurdle.

I just found out that the engine is ready to be picked up and my driveshaft is being built. I would really love to be focused on installing those and not redoing my suspension every weekend. haha

[Sbeck09]

Well I might have spoken too soon. Brake kits for the ridetech spindles are basically the same price if not MORE than they CV stuff. And with the ridetech spindles I still have to purchase steering arms and hubs.

This just isn't gonna be "cheap" no matter how I do it...

[Sbeck09]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.



Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!

[CobraCommander]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.



Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!

Bruh...... that's killer? Specs?

[cornfedbill]

Got a more positive call this week that was a welcome distraction from suspension design.

Just gonna leave this here......specs to come later.



Duffee Motorsports did a killer job building exactly what I asked for! I can't wait to hear this fire up!

[Sbeck09]

I hate that things are moving so slowly with this project at the moment, but I guess that's just how it goes.

I was hoping my last ditch effort to make the spindles work right would be shown here. I'm at a point where I know I could make these strut spindles work, but it's taking too much time. We will break 100 degrees already this week here in AZ and I wanted to have already started this engine. Ugh.



See it's close, but I was having trouble accurately aligning the upper and lower holes at identical angles and heights. I'm keeping them on the shelf and will one day make it work just to say I can. These will never be run on this truck. So if you were sticking around for that....sorry.

Yesterday morning I finally brought the engine home!



See it's there! My motorsports addiction has resulted in the car and truck living outside so all the toys can sleep safe and sound inside. Haha. I know some of you are the same way.

As you can see compared to how it looked when ready for pick up at the builder, I got right to work bolting goodies on. Mainly to seal up any openings from dust and bugs while it waits for me to finish the frame.



DUDE...I love this engine! What do you guys think of the color scheme and parts choice?

Specs:
408w
Stock 95 351w roller block bored .020 over
Scat forged 4" stroke crank
Compstar rods
Icon Pistons
ARP hardware throughout
Cammotion solid roller cam (I believe it's .611 lift, but I need to verify specs)
Comp Cams 1.6 roller rockers with their valve springs and tool steel retainers
RHS heads with full port job
Ferrea valves
Holley Hi Ram port matched to the heads

There isn't much info out there on this exact combo, but I did find a company in California that ran this intake on a slightly milder 408w and got over 600hp at the crank on 91 fuel. My heads and cam outflow theirs. I will be tuned to run both 91 and E85. I am sure that will be more than enough to help me waste tires on the street and pull hard on the track.

Spindles are due around Tuesday of this week and you guys all know I'll update accordingly.

[rixtrix1]

Have you checked the anti-dive geometry of your design as it appears the front of the upper arm is much lower than the rear, opposite of most suspensions. Certainly don't want it trying to bottom the suspension under braking. I may be in left field on this, but it just looks odd to me otherwise it's areally neat project!

[Sbeck09]

Have you checked the anti-dive geometry of your design as it appears the front of the upper arm is much lower than the rear, opposite of most suspensions. Certainly don't want it trying to bottom the suspension under braking. I may be in left field on this, but it just looks odd to me otherwise it's areally neat project!

Good eye. It's actually sitting level in the photo, but I will be changing the shims to add in some anti-dive. I set the arm level just for simplicity when I was mocking everything up. Once I get the new spindles I can better see what I need to change. Any idea on how to determine how much anti-dive to add?

[rixtrix1]

It's really hard to say without knowing all your suspension mounting points and other measurements and entering them into a program like Performance Trends, but most of the aftermarket drilled upper arm mounting plates come with the holes at 2 degrees up in front.