Best 2nd Gen Camaro budget suspension

[74 Camaro]

I need help! I have been looking at parts for this 74 Camaro for years now, and I finally have the money and motivation to buy parts and finish the build. The problem is, I have a time limit. The car is in pieces in my parents garage, and they want to be able to move this summer. The good side of this is that maybe I will finally get to do some autocross! I really enjoy looking at parts online, but now that I’m getting closer to making the decision on which parts to buy, I’m getting stressed out. Maybe I’m just not used to spending money like this, and I want to do it right.
I have many questions, and this is going to be a long post. I will number my questions to help keep my thoughts organized.
1. I’m looking at sites that have budget suspension kits, and I’m having trouble deciding who to go with. I’ve mainly been looking at PTFB and CWP. I would also consider CPP. Really, I would probably go with whoever can help me put together the parts list to meet my goals. I’m trying to do a decent upgrade to suspension, steering, brakes, wheels, and tires. I will be doing the work myself on a budget around $10K.
2. Now, I have a particular quirk about how I want to do this. I want to run the same size wide tires on all four corners, with the same offset wheels. I want to be able to rotate wheels and tires just like any normal stock car. It seems to me that it would be an advantage for both weekend driving and racing to be able to get some more life out of the tires. I will use spacers on either the front or back to meet this goal, unless someone can explain to me why this is a bad idea. Another idea I’ve had is to modify the rear axle to match the offset of the front (maybe with the inclusion of c-clip eliminators?).
3. I would really like to run 275/40R17 tires. This size seems to have plenty of options from all-season to racing compounds. I know this means I will need high-clearance control arms and sway bar for the front. I do not want to sacrifice turning radius. I am willing to modify the inner dimensions of the fenders.
4. Wheels will be 17” 8 spoke wheels, similar in appearance to the wheels the 70’s IROC Camaros ran. CWP offers a version of these wheels by Vintage Wheel Works. Team III Minilite wheels also look the part. I like this style because it is more period correct, and because it goes with the arachnid theme I intend to go with for the car ("Black Widow"- for the little creatures who like to make their homes under the car). This is one area where I am willing to spend a little bit, at about $430 a wheel. Anybody use these? Are they light comparable to more typical, modern pro-touring styles? Is the cost just for retro looks? If they aren’t that great for the money, I would be happy to take suggestions on a good, light-weight, more modern 8 spoke wheel for a reasonable price.
5. Brakes will probably be 13” Corvette brakes. The Corvette brakes are pretty good, right? I’m thinking that as long as I stay hydraulic and get the master cylinder sizing right I shouldn’t need fancy Baer or Wilwood stuff.
6. Another possible issue I have is the transmission, which is a Saginaw 3 speed manual. Whoever swapped in the Edelbrock crate 350 didn’t bother to change out the transmission that went with the original 6 cylinder engine. I imagine I could need something better, but I’m considering waiting until I have funds to do a complete drive train swap (LS/ T56). Does anyone have experience with the Saginaw 3 speed? Is the gearing ok? Does it shift nicely? Will it be strong enough? I barely drove the car before taking it apart, and that was years ago, so I don’t really remember what the transmission was like. I will want to autocross and carve canyons, as well as road trip. The Saginaw isn’t known for strength, and I don’t want to be left stranded. Is there a simple swap I can do that won’t cost too much? I haven’t really left room in my budget for a transmission, but I will consider it if it’s not too expensive. I’m thinking maybe a four speed? Still no overdrive, but strong, fast shifting, and better gears. Current gears are:
1st 2.85:1
2nd 1.68:1
3rd 1.0:1
Rear 3.08:1 (10 bolt)
7. As far as the engine goes, it is pretty nice. It revs surprisingly well, and has over 300 hp. I would like an LS for the weight savings and fuel economy, but the current engine is good enough for now, considering my budget.
My total budget is a bit bigger than 10K, but I have to do things like weather seals, dash, seats, etc. as well. I just throw that number out there to give an idea what I’m working with. One of the challenges I’m facing is that I’m overseas right now, so I can’t look at the car, test fit stuff, take measurements, etc. I could really use some help from people who know what works on these cars. The challenge is to have as many of the parts ordered and on hand by the time I get home so that I can get to work right away putting it all together. I’m also going to be putting together another car, moving out of my apartment, going on a road trip, figuring out what o do with 5 vehicles, moving from CA to FL, etc., so I will have my hands full. I will not be working while home, so that’s the good news. Meanwhile, I will be indebted to anyone who can help me figure this out!

[Dragonfly]

I can only comment on your first question, I would go with PTFB, or global west even though you didn't mention them

[SSLOW6.0]

There's a lot to unpack here.

I'll just give my two cents on a few things.

C-clip eliminators are not something I would run on an autox car, they aren't designed for lateral loads. Sure you could lop off the ends of the 10 bolt to put Ford 9 inch big ends on it, but at that point you might as well get a Ford 9.

I generally advise against wheel spacers for anything but show cars.

[BMR Sales]

I would look at our Products!

my Car

[74 Camaro]

Dragonfly,

Can you elaborate? CWP carries the Global West arms. So far, both PTFB and CWP seem like great companies.

SSLOW6.0,

Thanks for the info! That's the kind of mistake I want to avoid- getting parts for the wrong kind of driving. I suppose c-clips eliminators are more for drag racing? Is a stock 10 GM 10 bolt up to the task of handling side G-loads on 275 sticky tires?

I've read somewhere that spacers can ruin handling, but never an explanation as to why. To me, it would seem no different than running a wheel with a different offset, other than some added weight. Is the weight the issue? Or is there flex or geometry problems?

The Ford ends may be more what I was trying to go for. I'm pretty ignorant about these parts. That might be a way for me to get the offset to match the front. Also, it would still be cheaper than getting a whole new axle, I imagine. I want to keep the 10 bolt because it is lighter than a 9 inch, or a 12 bolt for that matter. At my power level, I don't see a reason to go heavier-duty, which would add more unsprung weight.

BMR Sales,

I just checked out your a-arms and front sway bar. The site doesn't say if they offer additional clearance for wider tires. That rear setup looks nice! I will probably be sticking with leafs for now, though, due to budget.

[71RS/SS396]

I would look at UMI as well, they also have some new front leaf spring mounts in the pipeline that mimic the Herb Adams mod.
http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...ndex&cPath=340

[gscherer78ta]

I frequent Trans Am Country's forums and there are quite a few people there waiting on the PTFB parts they bought. Seems like that is a one man operation. You could also look at Detroit Speed, SpeedTech and ridetech in addition to the vendors already named here.

I have a GM 10 bolt with a Eaton TruTrac in it that had been trouble free for 4 seasons now.

[79T/Aman]

I frequent Trans Am Country's forums and there are quite a few people there waiting on the PTFB parts they bought. Seems like that is a one man operation. You could also look at Detroit Speed, SpeedTech and ridetech in addition to the vendors already named here.

I have a GM 10 bolt with a Eaton TruTrac in it that had been trouble free for 4 seasons now.

REALY!! We moved our shop 600 miles yes there were delays and I am a one man shop for the most part, you post this a week ago and we have not had any back orders in 6 Months, we make some of the most innovative parts on a budget available, in fact our test car has won 3 SCCA cam class championships, multiple top 3 finishes and all done without cutting the car and ALL bolt on and yes on leaf springs beating out cars with all the bling bling ;-)

74Camaro feel free to call or send an email to me at PTFB

[F-Body International]

REALY!! We moved our shop 600 miles yes there were delays and I am a one man shop for the most part, you post this a week ago and we have not had any back orders in 6 Months, we make some of the most innovative parts on a budget available, in fact our test car has won 3 SCCA cam class championships, multiple top 3 finishes and all done without cutting the car and ALL bolt on and yes on leaf springs beating out cars with all the bling bling ;-)

74Camaro feel free to call or send an email to me at PTFB

Dave, you gotta change your profile location to TN ;) haha

[JohnJ@RideTech]

Sounds like you are going to have your hands full when you get back home!

One of the many benefits of this forum is that you can get a ton of ideas thrown at you pretty quickly, this place is full of first hand knowledge and experience. Being that you are starting off with a 2nd Gen car, you have a large selection of products to chose from that wont break the bank.

I have an early 2nd Gen as well that is a very..very slow work in progress. They all take time and money but usually when you have one, you don't have the other. Being that you don't really plan on getting too crazy in the racing scene, going all out with tubular arms, coilovers and a 4-link may not really the best option. Considering you have a certain investment range you are looking to stay in (as well as other areas of the car you are looking to attack), you may want to find some components that improve on the factory design without reinventing the wheel. Luckily (and arguably), out of the box, the 2nd Gen cars were better performers suspension wise than earlier models. With a few basic components you can drastically change the way the car handles and feels out on the road.

Changing out items like the coil and leaf springs, shocks etc. will definitely get you going in the right direction but there are a few other small changes that will make a world of difference. Replacing your factory rubber control arm bushings with a material like Delrin will free up movement and help eliminate stiction in the front end. Using that same material for your rear leaf bushings will do the same and virtually eliminate the noise associated with rubber or poly pieces. Even the addition of a slightly larger sway bar in the front will help with body roll.

All that being said, I believe we have something to offer that will meet or exceed all of your needs suspension wise. Everything in the kit is completely bolt on and can be installed with basic hand tools in your garage. No lift or welders required. Check out the link below to the StreetGrip kit below and let me know what you think. The right height is perfect and you can run the same 17in wheels and tires all the way around.

http://www.ridetech.com/products/sus...etgrip-system/

[74 Camaro]

Also, a note on PTFB, their home page says they are in the middle of a move, and to expect disruptions. Hopefully they will be back on their game soon!

[F-Body International]

Also, a note on PTFB, their home page says they are in the middle of a move, and to expect disruptions. Hopefully they will be back on their game soon!

PTFB is operating right now. They’re pretty much done moving. I’m actually meeting up with the owner Dave in a couple days.

Also, I currently have a fully built PTFB in the sales section if you’re interested. All brand new and parts still in the box...
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...Built-Subframe

[74 Camaro]

PTFB is operating right now. They’re pretty much done moving. I’m actually meeting up with the owner Dave in a couple days.

Also, I currently have a fully built PTFB in the sales section if you’re interested. All brand new and parts still in the box...
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...Built-Subframe

I saw that the other day, and was very interested, but then I saw that you said that your sf is for 75-81. Will there be issues with me trying to use your sf on my 74? Otherwise, I would be very interested! I have considered trying to get a different sf anyway because mine is damaged. It's even a bit out of square.

[F-Body International]

I saw that the other day, and was very interested, but then I saw that you said that your sf is for 75-81. Will there be issues with me trying to use your sf on my 74? Otherwise, I would be very interested! I have considered trying to get a different sf anyway because mine is damaged. It's even a bit out of square.

If your frame is damaged and you don't have unlimited funds, then either frame I have for sale is logical. I have a stripped down and slightly modified stock frame...and I also have the fully done up PTFB frame. The fully done-up PTFB frame is by far the better deal if you can swing it. I can also give you a matching 4spd crossmember for either frame.

Also, late frames work in early cars. John Paige from Lab-14 has an '80-'81 (can't remember) frame in his '70. His forum name is NOT A TA. You just have to drill two holes for the rear body mounts.
https://www.lab-14.com/

[74 Camaro]

gscherer78ta,

Glad to hear the 10 bolt holds up well! Was the truetrac necessary for lateral strength or is it simply to put down power better? Does it use stock axles and c-clips?

Bummer that PTFB has been lagging. Poor guy must be swamped. Maybe he should hire an assistant?

JohnJ@ridetech,

Thanks for taking the time to explain!

Your products are definitely along the lines of what I need. I dream, just like everyone else, of putting in the latest and baddest suspension, with dual canister coil-overs, aluminum hyper-spools, tri-articulating electro-magnetic hydro bushings, tubular D-links, nano-carbon silicate F1 brakes, and 3 ft wide tires, then top it off with a full carbon body, roll cage, and a 2000 horsepower infra-turbo lsx, so I can win at autocross. But then a quick glance at my bank account reminds me that I am indeed a blue-collar worker, and my Youtube cover of Eminen's "Rap God" (slowed down to 3/4 speed) still hasn't gone viral.

For real, though, I'm trying to figure out if 275's are possible/ worth trying to do. So far, my research has indicated a strong MAYBE. I'm looking for someone who can confidently explain what suspension components to use, at what ride height, at what camber and caster settings, at what backspacing, and where to trim inner fenders, to be able to run 275/40R17's in front with no rubbing and no loss of turning ability. I would think that with all the competition out there, it would be that kind of confident knowledge that would make a vendor stand out. That is what has piqued my interest in the smaller specialized companies like CWP and PTFB- they have come the closest so far.

The home page on PTFB shows a Trans Am running 285's on all corners. I read in a thread that 2nd gen TA's have slightly better outer clearance than 2nd gen Camaro's due to a rounder fender arch. In the same thread one guy said he ran 285's all-round on a Camaro, but couldn't turn as tightly. He said there was an interference issue with the back of the upper a-arm. This makes me think that the interference affects the inner dimensions of the wheel, so it might be possible that a larger diameter wheel could have more clearance in that area. This is assuming that the outer dimensions are the same.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...+bar+clearance

The op was having trouble fitting 265/35R18's and was looking for a high clearance sway bar. He had also massaged his fenders, but said he wasn't running much camber and was sitting too low. Someone suggested the DSE front sway bar, because it sits close to the frame. Another suggested Speedway, but it would have to be custom made. Another factor mentioned was usable suspension travel when trying to go too wide.

rreichert82 posted this helpful info:

"When I asked what the max tire size I could run with the PTFB system his reply was "Well it depends on the size wheels you are looking to get, that will
dictate the available tire size, in general you can expect to be able to run a 26" tall 285 wide tire, if you go taller the width has to be less or you can go up to
315 wide and about 25.5 tall in the rear." I also read an article on car craft http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/wheels-...-tires-wheels/ that states the following

17-inch: 17x91/2 with 6-inch back-spacing up front; you'll need to modify the steering stops or the lower control arm to prevent contact. Camaros use
17x10 rears, Firebirds use 17x11, both with 6-inch backspacing. As mentioned in the 15-inch recommendations, you'll need to remove the seatbelt retractor
and bulge. Use tires with an aspect ratio of 40 or less with widths of 275 front, 295-315 rear. This is a really tight fit, so success will vary car-to-car.

18-inch: Use the same recommendations as for the 17-inch rims, but the tires need an aspect ratio of 30.
I will have my body guy test fit the tires when he is doing the metal work and see if there are any slight modification that will need to be done if so that will
be the best time. I am just trying to piece together information from as many sources as possible and all feedback is appreciated. Hopefully I did not hijack
this thread to bad lol. I will be happy to post pictures of what I come up with in a few months when the body shop gets everything mocked up."

That 2nd paragraph makes it sound like you will lose some turning ability. Or are they saying you can fix the problem by modifying the lca? Would an aftermarket lca adress that issue? Both PTFB and CWP claim their lca's are high clearance. Unfortunately, that thread just kinda died off without a solid conclusion. I may actually try to resurrect it just to see if the op was able to find a solution that worked for him.

If I can figure out what works, I will try to post up the info in a clear manner for others to be able to duplicate.

[gscherer78ta]

gscherer78ta,

Glad to hear the 10 bolt holds up well! Was the truetrac necessary for lateral strength or is it simply to put down power better? Does it use stock axles and c-clips?

Bummer that PTFB has been lagging. Poor guy must be swamped. Maybe he should hire an assistant?

.

The TruTrac went in because the factory posi failed and this came highly recommended. I have the factory axles still with C Clips.

Also, I run a 275/18 tire square on a 18 x 9.5 wheel with a 6" back space and 1" spacers in the rear and 7/16" spacer in front on the factory leafs in the back and factory control arms in the front. There are some spots on the front sway bar and frame where there is some rubbing but, I can still go to the steering lock. I run -2.5° camber and in the back I rolled the fender lips.

[74 Camaro]

The TruTrac went in because the factory posi failed and this came highly recommended. I have the factory axles still with C Clips.

Also, I run a 275/18 tire square on a 18 x 9.5 wheel with a 6" back space and 1" spacers in the rear and 7/16" spacer in front on the factory leafs in the back and factory control arms in the front. There are some spots on the front sway bar and frame where there is some rubbing but, I can still go to the steering lock. I run -2.5° camber and in the back I rolled the fender lips.

Thanks for the info! The TruTrac seems like a great option. I will be keeping it in mind if my budget allows.

Interesting that you can run that much tire with factory arms. Is -2.5 considered aggressive? And does that help with clearance?

[gscherer78ta]

Is -2.5 considered aggressive? And does that help with clearance?

-2.5° camber is aggressive, wouldn't plan on a lot of tire life but, it does help the car stick with the factory geometry and it also helps with clearance.

[JohnJ@RideTech]

-2.5° camber is aggressive, wouldn't plan on a lot of tire life but, it does help the car stick with the factory geometry and it also helps with clearance.

I second that.

We have used the basic alignment settings below on a variety of different vehicles. We use these as a baseline and tune from there.
Obviously, the more aggressive you plan to drive, the more you will need to adapt.

Camber= 0.5 to 1 deg. negative
Caster= 3-5 deg. positive
Toe= 1/16 to 1/8 inch toe IN

[74 Camaro]

JohnJ@ridetech,

I keep finding referneces to people installing the front 3 piece muscle bar on 2nd gen Camaros, but can't find it for purchase on the interwebs. What is the secret handshake that will allow me to get my hands on one of those?

The following is from a build of a 1970 Camaro. I can only guess you are familiar with this car?

"2nd Chance Camaro - Ride Tech Muscle Bar

2012 07-04 Update - Ride Tech Muscle Bar
www.2ndchancecamaro.com

Afternoon All,

People tend to think that they can handle a complete subframe swap. Then in the middle of the project they realize they have
either run out of money, time or skill to finish the project. As said in previous post the build of this car needs to be simple and
something that anyone can do. That is why Ride Tech is my first choice and always will be. Their product is proven and if you
can do simple remove and replace you are going to be unbelievable happy with all of the products offered by them.

Time to install the Ride Tech Muscle bar.

30 minutes later the bar is installed.

If your goal is to build you car in your garage or your driveway and not make it yard art then step up to Ride-Tech !!!!"


I'm refering to the 3 piece item, not the regular single piece. The 3 piece looks to provide more clearance, as has been suggested by other members.