What will we see in January?

[Damn True]

With the spy photos of the new Challenger popping up today and the fact that we now know SOMETHING f-bodyish is going to be shown in January I think the time is right for us to start talking out of our keisters.
What do you think the new F-body will be like?

Offer your e-speculation on the new car.
Include:
Possible model variations (base, berlinetta, RS, SS, Z-28 something else?)
Engine options (Ecotec, vortec, Northstar, LS1-2-6-7 something else?)
Trans options
Suspension configuration
Retro/modern ratio

[Ralph LoGrasso]

With the new Shelby at 450-500hp, and the new Challenger at 425hp, there needs to be an SS available with atleast 450 or even better 500hp. Supercharged LS2 would be ideal, as people would only be a pulley swap away from 600hp.

I've also heard the Z/28 will be the new top performer, which makes absolutely no sense, especially if they're trying to play on the car's heritage. Not sure how much truth there is to that satement, though. Give the Z the handling package, and a 400hp LS2.

Suspension should definitely NOT be IRS.
Trans - 6 speed manual / 6 speed auto (6L80E)

Have the ability to add the RS appearance package to either a Z/28 or SS.

Standard V6, with a nice blend of style, comfort and power to bring in the mass sales needed to keep the car alive.

I'm extremely objective when it comes to styling. Just make it look good, and put the Camaro back on top of the performance tier, as it once was, back in '02.

[Steve Chryssos]

The new Mustangs are successful BECAUSE there are no direct competitors. So if the Challenger comes out first, then the F-body's business model is even more risky. Which means there is yet another reason why a new F-body will not happen.

[TonyL]

I dunno. the mustang has always outsold gm's offerings combined. Becuase they build the car to stand alone as a bread and butter car and then "build it up" for the enthusiasts. Gm "dumbs a car down." Designs the car as a Z/28 and then reverse engineers it. Lets face it. The Z car was better and faster but didn't sell as well. The only logical reason would have to be design.

The new design is outstanding. Even if Chevy and pontiac had a competitor, the stang would still rock. Its all about how that nostalgia is captured in the new design.
Mike desmond did a concept drawing of a modern camaro a few years ago. Still to this day, I say it is the way to go. I'll be shocked, SHOCKED, if GM doesnt go with a "retro" verson, and failing to do so will kill the GM we know. It would be the final insult, salt in the wound, or whatever to millions of car buying enthusiasts.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm trying to be pessimistic. That way if I'm right, I won't be dissapointed. And if I'm wrong, I'll be that much happier.

[Doug Harden]

I'll let you all know when I'm in Detroit....I've been invited to the special unveiling of the new "RWD Chevrolet Sports coupe".... :D

I know quite a bit more about the car and it's option line-up, but will only suffice to say that Ralph is going to be slightly disappointed....

The car WILL have IRS (it is 2005 after-all...not all of us are drag racers)...and rumor has it that the Z/28 will return to it's rightful place as a special edition, high performance model...just like it started life as...(it IS it's Heritage!) ala the Z06. The engine will definately hold it's own amongst the competition ;)

The SS will continue to be the option leader in all areas...but don't count on it being the fastest model.

Good chance we'll see the LT designation again...

The car will be priced competatively with the Mustang...as it should be.

The car will be more "Heritage" inspired than all out retro (ala the Challenger), but I'm told it will be inspired by the 1969, (afterall, Ed Welburn has a yellow 1969 in his garage).

There's a good chance that I'll be able to post some pictures while I'm up there..so say tuned! :D

[Damn True]

Here's what I'd like to think the "new breed" at GM will do if they get away with what they claim to be their new direction for the brand.

Base model:
Ecotec 4-banger or GM 3800 v-6
5sp auto
16" wheels that look good
F - dbl wishbone - coil & standard shocks
R - live axle leaf & standard shock

RS:
Same as above but an appearance package that adds 17" rims, faux dual exhaust
leather interior accents, power accesories and a goofy wing.

SS
LS2
T-56
18" rims w/ equal size tires
Leather interior
f dbl wishbone with coilover
r live axle coilover 3-link with phb

COPO/Z-28 (think Cobra-R)
LS7
t-56
18" rims wider in the rear.
glass hood, aluminum fenders & roof, cloth interior radio delete, AC delete
f dbl wishbone with coilover
r live axle coilover 3-link with phb



I think it will be about 20-30% retro. Meaning it will have styling cues reminscant of 1st gen Camaro's, but will not be as much of a copy as the Mustang and Challenger.

[Kenova]

I think the Camaro should be styled after the first gens, '69s mostly. The Firebird should be styled after the early '70s.

More variety in the drive trains. Big horsepower for the Z28 and Trans Am, big torque for the SS and Formula. The product line really needs an intermediate V8, something between the big engines and the six cylinder. A 5.3 with DOD would be perfect. A choice between auto and manual trannies with all engines.

The base F-bodies should have solid rear axles for simplicity and to keep them affordable. IRS could be standard equipment on the Z28 and Trans Am, and optional on more luxury oriented models (Camaro LT and Firebird Esprit ?) For the SS and Formula, solid axles as standard equipment with an IRS option.

Give them very different personalities. The more body panels and glass they share, the more they will look alike.

To make more business sense, the platform should be expanded. There is no reason that the chassis can't be stretched six or eight inches to create two and four door Regals (hint - GRAND NATIONAL ) or even an entry level Caddy.

But hey, what do I know
Ken

[Mean 69]

I must say, that even though the cars today don't hold the same character as the real ones, the new Mustang and Challenger (especially the latter) are some really nice looking cars. If the Camaro can follow suit in terms of style, it too will be a winner, but I fear not as much so as the other two. One, the Mustang has a stronghold, big time. Two, the Dodge touts the HEMI, and for folks that don't know any better, the HEMI MUST be the best thing (which, by the way, it is one damn fine piece, look for many more of them to hit early muscle cars very, very soon). Plus, if the car looks like the spy shot, I'm selling the 911 and buying one. The Camaro missed the mark in the late days, I just wonder if GM realizes that this is an opportunity to capitalize on today's market, which is more hungry for muscle than it was three years ago, by a long shot.

It is baffling, by the way. If GM had put a similar amount of effort into a hot Camaro years back, as it had done for the Z06, I think the appeal for the model overall would be a bunch better than it was/is. The new Z06 is the best value hot rod on the market, ever, in my opinion, so someone there knows performance/value, let the guy be creative for other models!!

But, alas, the downside for all of the new "muscle cars," will be quality. I don't mean they aren't great cars, but look at the amazing trim on the real muscle cars, it is so artisitc, metal, and real. Todays stuff is a plastic rendition of something that it will never be. My personal favorite is plastic made to look like aluminum. Yuck.

M

[Doug Harden]

Chevy can not afford to engineer two different rearends...it's time for the Camaro to "grow up" a little....nor can they afford different body panels, etc...besides, the Mustang doesn't have them and it's Ford's cash cow.

There "might" be a mid level V8...

There will NOT be a Firebird "sister car" however...those days are over.

[rockdogz]

With HP estimates of 450 and 500 being thrown about, as well as drooling over the LS7, I have to wonder about the Corvette ceiling again. Chevrolet never wanted the Camaro to be within performance striking distance of the Corvette - will it be any different now? As exciting as it is to look forward to January, it sure is hard to listen to all the reports of GM falling on hard times. I really hope this happens - I'm all over selling my daily driver for a modern F body!

[trapin]

It is baffling, by the way. If GM had put a similar amount of effort into a hot Camaro years back, as it had done for the Z06, I think the appeal for the model overall would be a bunch better than it was/is.

The time to have started a replacement architecture for the F-Body would have been around '98 or '99. At the time we were pretty heavy into SUV, crossover, and truck programs (so was the rest of the industry) There was only a small number of car programs going back then that really weren't the focus at the time. Some have made it, others didn't. A replacement architecture that would have suited a new F-body was just in it's infancy when the 4th gen model had reached the end of it's lifecycle. A lot has happened since then which unfortunately is proprietary and I can't discuss. Who knew that Ford was creating the new Mustang and that it would do as well as it did? Give kudos to Ford for rolling the dice and leaving the casino with some green backs. Their gamble paid off. Now it's time to answer the call. And Chrysler apparantly agrees.

[Matt]

Wouldn't the R&D / Production/ Set up cost for a new, say LT, motor be a bad move fiscally?
As for Z/28 care to hint how 'special' it may be? Are we talking special lightweight body panels with a dry sump system, or bigger engine, special gear ratios, small body mods.
Any murmurs on a Club Racer type Z/28 to compete with the mustang cammer?
Any nods to engine sizes of yore? if they do another motor are we looking at a higher wrapping 302?

[Doug Harden]

Wouldn't the R&D / Production/ Set up cost for a new, say LT, motor be a bad move fiscally?

They already have a 5.3L DOD engine...

As for Z/28 care to hint how 'special' it may be? Are we talking special lightweight body panels with a dry sump system, or bigger engine, special gear ratios, small body mods.

No special body panels...no dry sump...The engine is the most interesting part.... ;) The suspension will be perfect for canyon carving...

Any murmurs on a Club Racer type Z/28 to compete with the mustang cammer?

You can bet the Z/28 will give the Mustang a serious run for it's money in ALL aspects of performance...ALL.

Any nods to engine sizes of yore? if they do another motor are we looking at a higher wrapping 302?

Again, the top dog engine choice will be a real surprise....at least to most people ;)

[Matt]

I think I might be pickin up what you're puttin down.

[Damn True]

Again, the top dog engine choice will be a real surprise....at least to most people ;)

Big Block?
I sincerely hope not, but it would qualify as a "surprise".

[JohnnyGMachine]

I posted this over at LG. I will be posting a couple more renderings soon. For those who haven't seen it yet here it is along with my thoughts on the exterior design atleast. I'm open for any constructive input.

For this concept, I did a lot of sketch exercises before I got it to this point. While sketching, things like the belt line, cowl height, and wheel base where the things that I kept in mind while working out my design. On the final concept design that you see here – the belt line was raised up a little higher which gave the car a more dramatic look by reducing the greenhouse height. This also allowed for the cowl height to be up higher which in turn lets me angle the hood down more and still maintain enough clearance for the engine. The raised cowl bulge also gives me approximately another 1-1.5” of hood clearance over the engine. Look at the C5 and C6, there’s room for the engine without major issues. The raised belt line also allows me to get the rear CD reduced for less aerodynamic drag. These were the couple things that were integrated into my design that helped me to get the look I wanted.
The front grill – This is my favorite part of the whole car. I always thought that the ’69 Camaro grill was really aggressive lookin’ and very modern at the same time. It’s really clean, so what I did was leaned it back , and gave it an even more modern edge or look so that it could be retro yet fresh at the same time. Although it’s probably not the most aerodynamic solution, it looks great and helps to get ample cool air into the radiator.
Now we can have a whole other debate and wheel sizes and what’s too big or not but as a designer I have to think ahead. And what happens to the wheel sizes on OEM cars every couple years – they get bigger. Also since this is a concept and used to gauge reactions I took a little bit of liberty with the wheel sizes. Think of it this way – look at the C6 ZO6 – 18” and 19” wheels??!!!! Holy Cow they’re huge – and beautiful. Why couldn’t the Camaro come with wheels this size, maybe 18s for the Z/28 but man wouldn’t it be killer to see staggered diameter wheel sizes on let’s say an SS version? Heck yeah!
Anyways, I have just about finished up the rear ¾ view rendering and have a side view worked out. I hope to get these up soon. Scott’s hopefully still gonna help me with a web site soon that will show the rest of my 5th Gen “what if” sketches along with a lot of other examples of my designs and renderings.

Thanks,
John

[Doug Harden]

That's killer John!!

[Doug Harden]

Big Block?
I sincerely hope not, but it would qualify as a "surprise".

No rat motors.....but there's more ways to stuff air in an engine than cubic inches....

[Damn True]

Hmmmuahahahhahahahahahaha!

Centrifugal?
Turbo?
Whipple?

Oh shizzznizzle, a TT LS2 would be siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!