drop spindles on 2nd gen camaro

[graycamaro]

what effects would a drop spindle have on a 2nd gen f bodys handeling abilities?

thanks

[79T/Aman]

increased scrub radius.

[JoshStratton]

When you say 'increased scrub radius' do you mean it is positive or negative? This is something I too am trying to understand. I am putting Baer disks with 2 inch dropped spindles on my car and also wonder about the effect. I realize they will push the wheels out about 1/2 inch from where they were originally, and the backspace will have to be adjusted to bring the scrub back to where it should be...as well as make sure they fit under the fenders properly, but what are the performance and safety effects?

EDIT:
NEVERMIND. Later in this post we find the Baers will work fine, for anyone who cares.

[Boyd]

Anyone? I'd like to know also....(man, there just isn't too much interest in us 2nd Gen guys is there?)

[hotrod]

Hi Boyd, I'll jump in here as well since this is something I plan on doing, increased scrub radius or not. Kuhlryde, I didn't realize that the dropped spindles would widen the track. Is it those spindles or Baers package itself whether it's dropped or not. Also is it 1/2" per side or 1/2" total?

[JoshStratton]

I am not sure, actually. I have a 79 with the Baers. They deliver them on the dropped spindles and I was told they would push the wheels out .5 inches so your rims would have to be adjusted to account for it. I am not sure if it is all of them or just the Baers that do it. I will PM Yody to get in on this. He really seems to know these cars well. So does Aman. Maybe one of them will join in...

[Mean 69]

I'll have to look at the spindles in my shop again, but I "think" that a dropped pin would actually improve scrub radius? Not trying to start anything, but I thought that the KAI was pretty upright, so it would have a pretty stout static scrub radius, so I think that dropping the pin would actually help things in this aspect.

One thing for certain, the pin is extremely low on the spindle on the second gen's, so lowering the car would probably put the lower control arm into a less than desireable angle, my guess is that the geometry would get even uglier. Quick. At first glance, and this is only a casual observation, I'd think a dropped spindle might be a good way to lower the car, but I hope someone with more specific info will chime in. For certain, just like the first gen Camaro's for performance, you'll need to start with a whole bunch of static negative camber.

Mark

[hotrod]

Mark, most everything you say makes sense. I don't know if you're familiar with the VBP monoleaf front suspension but that is what I have and in order to get the ride height down there I have had to adjust the bolt as far as it will go and the camber is hard to get to go negative. With 2" dropped spindles I hope to get the ride height where I want it and get the lower arm back to the correct angle. Hey Boyd and Kuhlryde pics are in my garage.

[JoshStratton]

Yikes. I wish I knew more about suspension geometry.

First, forgive me, I am a newb to suspensions....

Ok. Let me ask this. I have been following Yody's suspension and he has a pretty nice setup and I am actually thinking of matching his....among other options. Any thoughts on how this setup will interact with the dropped spindles? Mark's comment about the drop affecting the lower control arm worries me.

Will I need to adjust the suspension for a new lower control arm? If not, what can I do to get the camber back to where it should be?

Front
•Baers with 2 inch dropped spindle
•Global West del-a-lum bushings for lower control arms
•SPeedtech tubular upper control arms
•Hothckis 1 3/8 hollow front sway
•Bilsteins
•Hothckis small block coils

Rear
•Hotchkis 3-leaf
•No rear sway
•Bilsteins

[yody]

Actually Mark, I could be totally off here but if you raise the spindle up, then wouldn't the scrub radius increase? because you are raising the wheel up but teh control arm and ball joint angles stay the same, so wouldn't the space between the wheel centerline and the balljoint line increase?also if the KAI is upright wouldn't that make the scrub radius really bad???

I have no idea why Baer brakes kit would increase the track 1/2" on each side. that is HUGE. THe rotor itself is only like 3/16" thick, so if their hub had the same spacing as a stock rotor assembly the wheel would only stick out the thickenss of the rotor hat. Seems baers setup is all screwy, you would think they would design a hub that woudl keept the stock backspacing?? Most second gen guys run about 4.5" backspacing on a 8" wheel.

Edit,
not sure how far you want to drop the car, also not sure why you would need new lower control arms? If you really want to slam the car, the drop spindles would be a good thing. When I initially cut my springs too much and i had that killer stance, the lower control arms were about 5/8" away from the frame, and i couldn't even get a bump stop in there, the top of the lower control arm would of hit the frame! So a drop spindle is "probably" a good thing. You might be too low with the drop springs too. But you won't know until you assemble it all.
BTW I think the static camber has to do with your alighment settings, there isn't much you can do about camber gain with the stock suspension throughout the suspension travel.

[JoshStratton]

Ahh. So you would suggest running that setup but with stock height springs instead?

I dont really want to slam the car. I am trying to acheive that balance of comfort and strong support

DISCLAIMER: I cannot remember if it was Baer that told me that or someone else. I just remember being told somewhere that the Baer spindles would push the wheels out. Its great if they dont. I really hope they dont, but there arent too many guys running Baers on their 2nd Gens...so it is kind of hard to verify.

[yody]

Well I would verify it before i bought any new wheels. I can't really say about whether using drop or standard hegiht springs. It really all depends on how low you want the car, and what is under the hood. I personally depending on low you want the car and how heavy the front end is, probably use the hothckis springs first, you can always sell them if its too low. Your currente suspension setup is pretty much identical to mine and should work pretty good, it won't be a race car by any means but should handle its own no problem. I too don't have much info on the drop spindles, but if mark thinks its a good idea to raise the spindle pin height, than it could be a good idea.

The scrub radius is like this,
first draw a line down the centerline of the wheel, straight down the middle of it(viewing from the front of the car)
then draw a line from the center of the upper ball joint to the center of the lower ball joint, then follow the line until it intersects with the line you drew down the centerline of the wheel. The distance between the 2 lines at the ground(bascially bottom of wheel) is the scrub radius, making this distance bigger is bad because it gives less feeling/feedback to the steering, and making it smaller gives better steering feedback................I think raising the spindle pin UP which is how you lower the car wiht a dropped spindle "should" make the distance greater.

[JoshStratton]

Are there any ways of adjusting that distance if I were to still use the spindles?

[yody]

space your wheels farther inboard, which i wouldn't do. Not sure how bad the drop spindle will affect the scrub radius, it might not be a big deal, if your not trying to drop the car too much you just be fine with regular spindles and drop springs, but your venturing outside of my knowledge

[JoshStratton]

My issue is that I already have the Baers and they have the dropped spindles already installed. I guess I could remove them and have the Baers installed on the original spindles. I could always sell the dropped ones.

[zbugger]

Go ahead and use the spindles. I think you got misinformed. They usually base that measurement on swapping from drums to disks. I highly doubt you're doing that on your '79. It should most likely be the same. Not only that, but the difference would be overall. That means that it would be .25" on either side if it really was that much.

As for the drop, you'd be getting pretty low with the Hotchkis springs and the drop spindles. Otherwise, I'd say to just use the spindles. If you want a firmer ride, get the heavy duty stock replacement springs.

[yody]

or get springs made for you, or pick some from afco or something. The brakes probably won't work on a non dropped spindle because the rotor is higher up, so the mounting bracket has to be taller too

[JoshStratton]

I guess my big worry right now is the scrub radius. I am really worried that the car will be unsafe or I will be rotating my tires every other week to keep up.

So it sounds that what I am planning with the front and rear suspension will still work then?

[yody]

I don't think you should worry about it much, as far as i know (?) scrub radius isn't going to have anything to do with tire wear, and you would need to figure out approxitmly how much the spindle is going to change it, i doubt it will be unsafe

[graycamaro]

correct me if I am wrong but wont the upper and lower balljoints stay in the same place even with a lowering spindle and if it does shouldnt the scrub radius stay the same.