3pt belt vs 5pt harness

[shownomercy]

In terms of safety in a daily driver... no air bags, and a properly installed 6pt roll bar.

3pt OEM seat belt vs 5pt harness.

My worry is the 5pt will not allow for body movement like a stock belt would and my neck would absorb a lot of whiplash in a sudden stop or rear end situation.



Thoughts?

[j-c-c]

I think you have got it backwards. If you want you neck to move around with your head attached, consider the trauma possible when your head contacts a well installed steel tubed cage, kinda like getting hit with an alum baseball bat, and if like most others, you will comforted by the fact the alum bat has a 1/2" of foam covering it. It safety is a true concern, and you a are helmetless, consider a properly mounted head restraint true race seat. In a severe front impact with out a hans and proper belts, you are out luck with a 3 point, and a 5 point, is as you are suggesting, asking for a typical basal skull fracture (snapped neck). The real elephant in the room seldom discussed, a full cage in a street car. Check out the White featured Camaro in the current HR mag. Driving that car without a helmet with that cage, with that tire package on the street, is insane IMO.

[TheJDMan]

For street use you are required to use a DOT legal harness. In a daily driver with a roll bar(not a cage), you need to look at the Schroth ASM DOT legal 4 point harness.

http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-cross

Or a DOT legal 4 point that can be upgraded to a 5 or 6 point in the future.

http://www.schrothracing.com/competi...m/profi-II-asm

[72BBSwinger]

If it doesn't have a backseat it is a racecar lol. If your head can contact one of your bars in your car while you're in your seat, either rip the cage out or where a helmet 24/7. As much as I hate to, I agree with JCC on this one. I run 3 points with a cage.

[shownomercy]

Woah, guys.. Roll bar, not cage, IE no halo bar. With current seat head cannot contact main hoop and I don't run door bars normally Street wise.

So stock belt is safer than a 5pt?

[j-c-c]

A 5 pt would be safer IMO, but not sure how many are diligent enough every time to use all 5 pts to "just run up to the 7/11". A properly located roll bar is definitely contactable in an accident with your head. Watch a few online videos to reflect on how violent and flexible the human body and seat belts are. It is a compromise, just hopefully informed. 72Swinger, stop agreeing with me. hehe.

[shownomercy]

If the seat back is taller than bar and what not, it would have to be a nasty crash to snap seat off mounts and then send head back into bar. Even then seat back is braced to cross bar so would be a nasty ass crash.

Again, I understand those risks, just asking about 5pt vs 3pt.

[Project92rs]

The one issue only somewhat mentioned is there are almost no harnesses that are actually DOT legal. The Schroth ones mentioned above are about your only option to actually have a street legal harness. The others are for race use only and you can be ticketed for not using a DOT legal seat belt. That's why you see so many cars with both the factory belts and harnesses installed. And, as the others have mentioned, driving on the street with a cage has some inherent danger if you aren't wearing the full set of safety equipment.

[SSLance]

I use my factory 3 points on the street, and 5 point harness on the race track. Have tried driving on the street with the shoulder harnesses snugged tight and it sucks...period.

[shownomercy]

The one issue only somewhat mentioned is there are almost no harnesses that are actually DOT legal. The Schroth ones mentioned above are about your only option to actually have a street legal harness. The others are for race use only and you can be ticketed for not using a DOT legal seat belt. That's why you see so many cars with both the factory belts and harnesses installed. And, as the others have mentioned, driving on the street with a cage has some inherent danger if you aren't wearing the full set of safety equipment.

If an officer gave me a ticket for the lack of seatbelt on, thats a gift IMO. I understand they are not DOT legit and never will try to justify it that way. The roll bar (not cage) is a catch 22, I don't want it, but want to race my car more than once at a track. Just stuck in a viscous circle of having enough safety equipment to satisfy the track but not endanger my life on the street.

:shrugs:

I use my factory 3 points on the street, and 5 point harness on the race track. Have tried driving on the street with the shoulder harnesses snugged tight and it sucks...period.

IDK, drove around last night and today to work with the 5pt cinched down tight as hell and no real complaints except the getting latched up aspect.

[SSLance]

Welcome to the conundrum... Do you have a remote control for your stereo? Or how about reaching your heater or AC controls?

Turning around to look to back into a parking spot can be fun too.

[shownomercy]

Welcome to the conundrum... Do you have a remote control for your stereo? Or how about reaching your heater or AC controls?

Turning around to look to back into a parking spot can be fun too.

Stereo is there, but doesn't work and HVAC is gone.

I will concede, backing up to park this morning I popped the camlock off

[mikedc]

I think you have got it backwards. If you want you neck to move around with your head attached, consider the trauma possible when your head contacts a well installed steel tubed cage, kinda like getting hit with an alum baseball bat, and if like most others, you will comforted by the fact the alum bat has a 1/2" of foam covering it. It safety is a true concern, and you a are helmetless, consider a properly mounted head restraint true race seat. In a severe front impact with out a hans and proper belts, you are out luck with a 3 point, and a 5 point, is as you are suggesting, asking for a typical basal skull fracture (snapped neck). The real elephant in the room seldom discussed, a full cage in a street car. Check out the White featured Camaro in the current HR mag. Driving that car without a helmet with that cage, with that tire package on the street, is insane IMO.

If it doesn't have a backseat it is a racecar lol. If your head can contact one of your bars in your car while you're in your seat, either rip the cage out or where a helmet 24/7. As much as I hate to, I agree with JCC on this one. I run 3 points with a cage.

If I hacked away all the metal that I could easily reach with my head wearing 3pt belts, then a bunch of my car's factory unibody roof structure would need to be hacked out.

This is true in plenty of modern vehicles.

I am 6' 0" with average proportions.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I don't want to smack my head against anything [other than a brick wall on occasion] but I think hitting your head on a roll bar would be much more serious than hitting your head on sheet metal. The baseball bat analogy really 'Hits' home!

[j-c-c]

Something I read, obliquely related yesterday to this topic in "Race Car Engineering" was, it is very important in hard impacts that the seated occupants spine be as straight as possible, kinda along the lines of when picking up heavy objects, bend your legs, not your back. And the back/spine strength of a 20-30 year old is approx 2.5 times stronger then a 60 year old. IE, keep belts tight as possible to prevent slumping forward and the spine curving.

[hotrodalex]

I only use the lap belts in normal driving. Full harness is only for autox or driving in the mountains.

Never been pulled over so I don't know how a cop will react to the non-DOT lap belt. Don't plan on finding out.

[Kcorrigan2]

So many considerations...how is your harness mounted? How does it pull against your body? Bottom line...every article I have ever read that has been written by experts...people who research with crash dummies etc. have stated that a three point is safer than a 5 pt in this situation, Unless you are going full Monte every time...racing seat, harness properly mounted so as not to compress your spine, helmet...and nobody does that...every time on the street. Put your three point on. IMHO

[MonzaRacer]

OK, after doing research, and reading everyones input. I find some points well constructed, but i have helped install roll cages, we tucked the upper hoops well into the roof. As for head injuries from hitting a roll bar or the roof rail, sorry but forensics proves that totally wrong. A head hitting ANY hard metal part will cause damage, period, be it round tubing or bent sheet metal.
After several calls I got a hold of an old friend who used to be my doctor and he also did forensic pathology for SEVERAL racing accidents, namely for insurance purposes to see if the tracks failed to provide safety checks properly.
NOW if your new cage/roll bar intrude excessively into passenger compartment, yes typical roll bar padding wont help a great deal.
I have heard a new brand that has better safety rating ,so to speak.
I have been in endos and roll overs AT SPEED all in same car, 4/5 pt harness, not sure if I had submarine strap on. car end over end 4 times, layed over and rolled 3 more before landing on wheels.
86 Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe, Alston based cage but installed for us much tighter, installer came in to shop to help make sure it went up high enough. Plans were to hide upper hoop with custom headliner and part of stock interior.
We actually cut into roof framework and sunk tubing into roof and welded too the roof metal.
When we tore car down post wreck the roof was straightenable, they hung new right quarter, replaced fiberglass dog house, replaced short block after heads/intake ripped out of block, sucks it destroyed the block, it was a balanced and blue printed Nickey Chevrolet 427 BBC, L88 actually.
WE swapped out old school pistons and rods for exact same weight package so we didnt have to rebalance just got 10-15 yr newer piston design and better rods.
And we even bought another similar short block but it have less than 10k miles so we honed it and actually was able to swap in our lower end.
Heads were aluminum, supposedly Brownfield, but not sure anymore.
We had to straighten out throttle link, Mallory fixed the distributor body and we got car back together in only 6 weeks.
Anywho, as for police involvement I have been assured that pretty much any type of restraint is considered ok.
As for having wrecks with harness or 3 point, well I STILL pay for wrecks with three points with damage and injury that is also aggravating just plain old age catching up with me.
Used to shake off wrecks, start rebuilding my car(s) the next day if not same day.
Now, not so quickly.
If I have a seat properly reinforced after installing rollbar/cage then the cross bar should be roughly shoulder height.
Installed the way I like, most 3 ways wont even let a body get close to the roof bar.
Most people must want to sit way up high with head real close to roof.
As for backing up, reaching for controls, well I generally make sure I sit close enough to get to controls and unless I am racing I dont let my 3 point or my harness be painfully tight, never have.
I have seen some bad cage/bars, and some great ones like the ones I described.
Build what you like, drive what you like. If you install a cage and daily drive it seems to me that you decided to modify it, just as if you installed a blower or NOS or turbo or even aftermarket brakes, and all of them can kill you, cause gross bodily harm.
I still take away from all that is said and take information from my friend/ex doctor and he simply says if your gonna get hurt in an accident, nothing will change that. He has seen more people KILLED by air bag trauma of driving the nasal bone into the victims brain than head trauma from hitting on roof frames.
As for harness or 3 point, run what ya want. wear it when ya want.
For all these posts about this isnt safe, that isnt safe, this will or wont work. Arent all the cars on here done to OUR choice.
Run what ya brung ,hope ya brung enough and do it your way.
I still have sbc/bbc, dont get me wrong, I could go LSx, but why, first of all i can drop in a sbc, drop in an hei, flip some cheap headers, drop on couple of cheap turbos and such and make good power with very little cash.
Anyway plan your project and build it.

[MonzaRacer]

Duplicate

[72BBSwinger]

That's why I specified "if your head can contact any tube of your cage while belted in, where a helmet or cut it out...." I built mine to not allow that.