Need some help as I haven't a clue...

[clockit]

Hey guys! Newbie here looking for some help, I just bought a '66 Malibu, pretty decent shape, well taken care with a few mods. I've been looking for a while for something I could put my stamp on that was reasonable in both price and condition. Anyway, I love the pro touring stance but I'm not really sure how to do what it is actually needed. I know you can go out there and buy a $5,000 or more complete suspension kit that does everything under the sun, however, I'm not a racer, auto crosser, or need a car that can take 15 mph corners at 60, though I'd like, its not going to happen, lol.



Anyway, I like most want to spend my money wisely and appropriately for how the car will be used. It currently has some 18" x 8.5 wheels on it with 245/45's on all for corners, I'd kind of like to go with the staggered look of 20's out back, 18's up front. But first and foremost I want to lower it and I was wondering if any of you could give me some advice, do's and don'ts, on how to achieve the look I want. So, I wanted to be able to convey my vision properly I photo shopped a pic of the car for how I would like the stance. Any help on how to achieve this look would be appreciated, thanks!

Rod

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

Welcome aboard! Anyways, as far as advice on just pure "stance" goes, the people on here put strong emphasis on driving characteristics, as well as aesthetics. So while cutting coils or just dropping a dropped spring in there might get you by as far as stance goes. But those first gen A-bodies left a LOT to be desired in terms of handling goes. You don't have to spend $5k to get good handling. I would bolt on a ridetech Level 1 kit, and be done. It includes everything you need, a better spindle, all tubular control arms, and 4 coilovers so you can fine tune the stance, and at $3300 is not a bad price at all. Call up Matt at Matt's Classic Bowties and he can usually get a better price than through the ridetech site. I haven't raced with their suspension yet as my first race car is under construction, but after a lot of research and spectating, I've become very impressed with their setups.

http://www.ridetech.com/store/1964-1...er-system.html

[clockit]

thanks for the greeting and the advice... honestly, I haven't even drove this car yet, it's still on it way to me. And it's really not about the money as much as I don't want to pay for a 'hammer' when I needed a 'screwdriver' type of mentality, as well as, i don't want a screwdriver when I really needed a hammer. And $3,300 isn't that bad of price, especially if it drives like a pig now, lol.

Another question, can you drive a '66 with this stance? I would be willing to give a little on how low it goes if I can maintain that stance both driving and sitting. Because about the only sitting it will do is when it's in my garage, not much of the car show type of guy, lol, I get board pretty easily.

I've owned a ton of cars in my life time but never a Chevelle or a big block, I plan of correcting both of those issues with one swing. She currently has a 283 in her but she is a pretty clean car that has the bucket seat/console option, so many are bench seat and auto on the column, and the price seemed right so I picked her up. I've bought 3 new Chevrolets locally in the last 12 months, I'm hoping that the dealship will give me a break on ZZ427... fingers crossed, lol

[BMR Sales]

Are you planning on going New Aluminum BigBlock? Always liked a Built 283, though. You car looks sweet and will look great lowered.

[hotrodalex]

Any of the suspension kits similar to the ridetech level 1 will let you drop the ride height and improve how it drives. Tubular control arms, tall spindle or tall ball joints, single adjustable coilovers, and some sway bars will do wonders for the car.

Only issues you might have with getting it that low would be front tire rub and scrapping headers on speed bumps. But those are pretty minor and fixable. Coilovers will let you find the sweet spot between ride height and practicality.

[clockit]

Aluminum heads, but not block... been looking around the inter web and there are some pretty sweet deals on big block packages...

thanks for responding guys, there are so many options like when I look the RideTech options, the air ride and the non air ride. If I want to go with the air ride option would she still drive like a stock pig?

Option A: Level 1 Air, I like the adjustability factor and the price, $2,400
Option B: Level 1 Air, but add upper and lower a arms, puts me in the same price neighborhood as Level 1 coil over, $3,500
Option C: Level 1 Coilover $3,400

If you were me and wanted to achieve the look above how would you spend your money?

[csouth]

The ridetech 66 is on air ride and 18's on all corners.

http://www.ridetech.com/garage/1966-chevelle/

My personal preference would be the coilovers, but I would contact Ridetech for pro's and con's of each. Their customer service is great and they will not hesitate to offer asst before or after a sale.

As far as the motor goes I would check the dealer, Jeg's and Pace Performance.

[TheJDMan]

What I'm reading from the OP is that first and foremost you are looking to lower the car's stance, but improving your handling and braking is an afterthought if even that. Thing is, the entire point of the Pro-Touring movement is to "make 40 year old muscle cars handle, brake and outrun new Corvettes and look good doing it". There are all sorts of levels of PT builds from wannabe PT to hard core PT. Typically once a newcomer realizes how much more fun it is to drive a 40+ year old car that actually runs, handles and brakes well, the build focus quickly goes from wannabe PT to something on the road to hard core PT.

My advice to you would be to spend time reading what others are doing and decide what you really want. If you decide on a wannabe PT build, throw some short springs on it, big ass 20's and go hang out at the local weekend car shows. But if you want to actually improve the entire package to something that runs, turns and stops well, then read on and learn how others have done it, what works, what doesn't and once it's complete go out and actually drive it like a real sports car and have FUN.

[clockit]

Yes, I want to lower my car, guilty as charged, however, assuming that "handling and braking is an afterthought, if even that" and labeling me a 'wanna be" is a bit harsh. But in fairness I went back and read my post and I can see where one could think that if they choose to. I own a cutting torch, if my goal was only to slam it down I would have just cut a couple of coils off of the springs.

But I'm guilty of 'assuming' as well, I assumed that if I came here and ask those that have done this before how to do this, the do's and don't, and ask for advice that it was implied that I wanted to do it correctly and spend my money wisely. As I noted in my OP, I had already found a bajillion things that I could buy that could lower my car, but I assumed that there are things that you want to do first, or early in your build as not to have to spend money twice.

Also, I haven't even drove this car yet, it's still in transport from California to my place. I 've never owned a A Body GM product either, so I don't have a baseline as to how these cars drive and handle. And I assume that you didn't see the post where I ask "that if I went with an air ride system would my car still handle like a pig?"

I've spent countless hours reading this forum and there are hundreds of combinations being put together with multiple car platforms. Some use springs, some add lowering spindles, some do both, etc., etc.... I was hoping to be headed in the right direction when starting from scratch achieve the best return on my investment. But once again I am guilty of assuming that there is probably a systematic way, a foundation that you could build upon, to go from a stock mid sixties car to a performance muscle car, but I guess I was wrong.

Also, I know how to install big brakes, change motors and transmissions, or even rebuild them, I didn't see the need to ask you how to do something that I already knew how to do. I know where good money is spent, places like stainless steel brake lines and braided line to the calipers. I'm familar with stuff like that. I'm familar with topics such as stiffening your car with sub frame connectors, even though that won't directly apply to my build, but what I'm not familar with is do I really need a double adjustable shock vs. fixed valving...

Lastly, it was not my intent to offend any of the hardcore PT brotherhood, and if I did I apologize. I was just looking for a short cut on how to get from point A to point B without wasting dollars along the way.... yep, guilty as charged. To those of you that offered assistance, I really do appreciate it, I do and I was trying to learn and understand, so thank you. However, maybe this isn't the place for me, I don't think I'd make it long here, so...

Rod

[hotrodalex]

ridetech air bags will do a great job of improving handling. You just have to decide if you want to pay for the ability to raise and lower the car on the fly or if you'd be okay with setting the ride height with a wrench. And if you want to install the air tank and lines.

For shocks, either a performance-minded fixed valve or single adjustable would fit your plans. Personally, I like to have some control over things so I went with single adjustable.

The A-body has terrible camber gain from the factory, which is the reason for new spindles or tall ball-joints. Most of the aftermarket spindles will also correct the factory bumpsteer.

One thing you mentioned was the level 1 ridetech airbag kit and new control arms. That'd be a good plan, but make sure you get control arms to fit the air bags - I believe the level 1 kit comes with bags that fit in the stock spring pocket, while the control arms that Ridetech sells are made for coilovers or their upgraded Shockwaves.

The stock spring rate is laughably low, but that will be fixed with either coilovers or bags. That will cure some of the body roll, along with big sway bars. I'm running Hellwig bars front and rear. I like the Hellwig design in the rear because the stock bar connected to the lower trailing arms, whereas the Hellwig attaches to the frame. Seems like a much more effective design.

To get modern steering feel, you don't need to upgrade to a rack and pinion. A 600 series box from DSE/Hotchkis/etc has a good ratio and no slop.

[Tom Welch]

we built a 65 Malibu SS for a customer and he elected to go with Hotchkis' TVS system. it mad a major improvement in ride and handling, now the seats are TOTALLY inadequate for the car. Its an option, for brakes check out Kore 3. Tobin is a great source of information and he gives it to you straight, no hype or fluff. We installed their big brake kit on this same mailbu. again a ridiculous improvement, it stops so well that is was a bit unnerving at first. there is a ton of info, read read read read read. There you have it.

[clockit]

Hotrodalex, I know what you mean about the ridetech lower arms, they are made specifically for the shockwave air system, which could limit choices moving forward. I could buy the arms from someone else that would have the pockets and go that way. However, one thing that confuses me greatly is, do you get the lowering spindles or not. It seems that there is a contingency of those that alude to the fact that maybe you should use the stock type with the relocated ball joints. I way I see it is that if you remove the need for your suspension to have to accomodate the 2" of lowering you gain that much suspension travel, ie better overall ride and handling. Does that make sense?

The reason I'm leaning towards the air systems is that honestly I don't understand the shock technology well enough. The air system gives me room for error and chance to catch up to the shocks. I think, lol. But I've always kind of been a 'black and white' type of person, and this is not a knock on ridetech, I believe they are just trying to answer to what the consumer wants, but... If you read their product descriptions a novice such as myself will tend to believe that both Level 1 solutions will provide the same basic solution, lower your ride and improve ride quality. For me, if both does the same thing why do you need two solutions? I guess I find it hard to make an informed decision because they don't really pit the 2 solutions against each other as to why which one is best for me, know what I mean?

Tom, definetly going to add brakes, I understand that technology a lot better but I'm giong to give Tobin a call and see what he would recommend. But I think you're really on to something here, fixing one thing is going to point out the other things that are totally inadequate and or lacking, lol. I had already noticed that my Chevelle is currently running drums on all four corners and if they are comparable to the drum system that I had on my 67 Dart, braking was an 'experience' at times. The way that I understand it, braking is more about dissapating heat and creating balance between the front and back more so than just adding surface area.

The one thing that still concerns me though is, can I drive the car at that stance? I know that there are still a lot of variables to take into consideration such as wheel offset, back spacing, tire size, yada, yada, yada... Because I'm not opposed to the coilover idea, where I adjust as needed for conditions as opposed to the car goes up to drive and then you have to stop and get out and the car drops type of scenario. I'm not a big fan of cars with tops of the wheels and tires laying in so severely, it's pretty obvious whats going on there.

There are so many options and variables that when you're starting from scratch, so to speak, it does become a little over whelming. But, thanks to you guys I think I'm starting to get a better feel for things. I guess if it was easy it wouldn't be nearly as fun and and everyone would be doing it , lol... thanks again guys!

[hotrodalex]

Hotrodalex, I know what you mean about the ridetech lower arms, they are made specifically for the shockwave air system, which could limit choices moving forward. I could buy the arms from someone else that would have the pockets and go that way. However, one thing that confuses me greatly is, do you get the lowering spindles or not. It seems that there is a contingency of those that alude to the fact that maybe you should use the stock type with the relocated ball joints. I way I see it is that if you remove the need for your suspension to have to accomodate the 2" of lowering you gain that much suspension travel, ie better overall ride and handling. Does that make sense?

The only problem you can run into with 2" drop spindles is hitting the inner fender well on big bumps. But that's avoided with correct backspacing and good shocks. The 2"drop means that the car sits lower, but you don't sacrifice shock travel. If you lower the car only with the spring, you limit shock compression travel, which hurts ride quality.

The reason I'm leaning towards the air systems is that honestly I don't understand the shock technology well enough. The air system gives me room for error and chance to catch up to the shocks. I think, lol. But I've always kind of been a 'black and white' type of person, and this is not a knock on RideTech, I believe they are just trying to answer to what the consumer wants, but... If you read their product descriptions a novice such as myself will tend to believe that both Level 1 solutions will provide the same basic solution, lower your ride and improve ride quality. For me, if both does the same thing why do you need two solutions? I guess I find it hard to make an informed decision because they don't really pit the 2 solutions against each other as to why which one is best for me, know what I mean?

air ride vs. coilover just depends on what you want the car to do and what you want to install. Coilovers don't have the constant ride height adjustment, but you don't have to run all the air lines, wiring, and find a place for the air tank.

For ride quality and performance, shocks are usually more important than the spring rate. Any of the shock brands on this forum are going to be great for your usage. Ridetech, Viking, JRi, QA1, etc.

The one thing that still concerns me though is, can I drive the car at that stance? I know that there are still a lot of variables to take into consideration such as wheel offset, back spacing, tire size, yada, yada, yada... Because I'm not opposed to the coilover idea, where I adjust as needed for conditions as opposed to the car goes up to drive and then you have to stop and get out and the car drops type of scenario. I'm not a big fan of cars with tops of the wheels and tires laying in so severely, it's pretty obvious whats going on there.

My car is almost as low as that. Front wheel arch is 25" off the ground, with the frame (side frame rail right behind the tire) 6" off the ground. The rear wheel arch is 23.5" and the side frame rail right in front of the tire is 6". My headers scrape on tall speedbumps, but other than that I don't have any issues.

There are so many options and variables that when you're starting from scratch, so to speak, it does become a little over whelming. But, thanks to you guys I think I'm starting to get a better feel for things. I guess if it was easy it wouldn't be nearly as fun and and everyone would be doing it , lol... thanks again guys!

Like everyone says, reading this forum and lateral-g.net will help wrap your mind around all of it.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

The only real difference between bags and coilovers is for if you want to constantly adjust your ride height. Me personally, I like the low look, but not so far as to crush a soda can slammed. The look I like can typically be accomplished with a static (coilover) drop, and typically won't have issues in drivability. I think bags have a more usable application in say a 50 Mercury, where you want the rockers laying on the ground while being shown, and need to raise it while driving away. On a muscle car, the difference between drivable, and the proper looking height is nearly one in the same, so I'd say coilovers would be perfectly adequate. Plus, you don't need to run the air lines, compressor, and tank. Have you factored that in as well? That will be on top of the price for the Level 1 kit, several hundred more.

[MonzaRacer]

Had CoolRide on rear of my 70 Monte, I am sorry to say it but from my point of view is the air ride is a better bet for ride, height AND handling.
Since Ridetech has stepped up and built some of the best high performance handling shocks dedicated to pro-touring.
They bought other stuff but the progression has paid off in good fashion.
I wish they made an air ride setup for my Monza, doesn't mean I won't step up and use parts build something, I just have choices now with them doing the industry best coilovers also.

[clockit]

Well, I made a decision and tomorrow I'm ordering all my parts. Wanted to give you guys an update since you were so nice to offer advice, I really do appreciate it... I am buying the following:

1. Tubular A-Arms, upper and lower
2. Tubular Contral Arms, upper and lower
3. QA1 coil overs
4. Front and Rear Sway Bars
5. 13" Front Disc Brakes w/6 piston calipers
6. 12" Rear Disc Brakes w/4 piston calipers
7. Matching Master Cylinder
8. Spindles
9. New Steering Box
10. Braided Brake Lines
11. Stainless Steel Brake Lines

That ought to get my old shovel rolling down the road pretty good, huh? Nobody will be able to call me a poser... lol... Thanks again guys, your help really made me feel a lot better about spending my dollars!

Rod