B-Bodies or Chevelle?

[Removed user as requested]

Hey,

Just wondered something that I cant seem to find on google that is satisfactory for me.

To build a pro-touring 68 charger, or 70 roadrunner, or 70 chevelle... which would overall be able to achieve more?

Which of the 3 would/can be made the lightest, so power-weight ratio for quick runs?

These are the 3 cars i like most and just wondered from a performance perspective, which would be the best 1/4 mile or handling.

My assumption is:

Charger the heaviest even if all alloy parts etc gotten to reduce as much as possible. Its physically the biggest car.



Roadrunner being 2nd heaviest, slightly smaller than charger, 116" wheel base.

Chevelle being capable of being the lightest, sitting at 112" wheelbase making it the smallest of the 3.

[BMR Sales]

I thought you said you bought a Chevelle last week!

[Schwartz Performance]

You said the Chevelle is capable of being the lightest, after you asked which of the three can be made the lightest...?
No doubt the Mopars are the largest and heaviest..

-Dale

[NJSPEEDER]

The only way to compare which can truly be lightest is to weigh the shell itself and decide how many lightweight goodies your wallet can actually support. There is a lot of CF and Ti stuff out there to make any muscle car scale like a Honda Civic if your wallet has the right power to weight ratio

-Tim

[Gratefuldiver]

Nothing to do with weight but, I would guess that the Chevelle would be the cheapest to build and you'll find more aftermarket parts for it then you would for a Mopar

[raustinss]

As a Chevelle owner there is WAY more stuff for them,then the mopars. They also have a full frame which the mopars don't. Oh and of course it's a Chevy not a mopar that alone should be enough to want a Chevy

[benno505]

what is the weight of these cars? wheelbase does not determine a lighter car.
my 68 charger weighs 1575kg, and only things it has different from factory is chromoly k member, coilovers, disc brakes, 4 link, alloy heads, fibreglass bonnet. also has a full stereo in it.
mopars are probably double the price to do up the same as a chebbie.

[benno505]

As a Chevelle owner there is WAY more stuff for them,then the mopars. They also have a full frame which the mopars don't. Oh and of course it's a Chevy not a mopar that alone should be enough to want a Chevy

bit of mopar hatin going on. some words of inspiration: HEMI, 6 pack, best gearbox built, made some of the best looking muscle cars, had one of the best factory suspension setups, rarely gets beaten in a straight line, mopar people are more genuine, mopars are rarer so appreciated more.

you started this haha

[Removed user as requested]

Hey,

Thanks for replies. First of, I did not state the chevelle "is" the lightest. I said I assume it is because it is smaller. The shorter wheelbase of the car is a result of car being shorter itself than the mopars B-bodies. So i assumed based on size alone that it can be the lightest of the 3. I wanted to know whether that assumption is sound or there are other aspects to. I mean, if all 3 cars got a full carbon fiber body, doors etc, there is still less carbon used on a smaller chevelle and thus still lighter, this is my logical guessing but may not be right due to something i do not know about. Hence i asked which one can be lightest.

Chevelle being full frame rather than unibody, i heard that makes it heavier, so perhaps in this is where a charger may be able to be made lighter ultimately because it is not a full frame... ???

Yes i bought a chevelle. I was just curious because i did own a 68 charger prior.

I wouldnt say mopar is better/appreciated more due to being rarer. It can be said they are rarer because nobody wanted to buy them. They were too busy buying fords and chevs. But anyway, im not brand loyal. I had a 68 dodge charger, i had a 69 ford mustang after it and now i have a 70 chevy.

Also to go by genuinity, i lost all my money, got ripped off on, lied to etc by mopar people. My experience is, they are the worst of the lot who live in a parallel universe when it comes to value etc. Its mopar must be worth a milion dollars. Idiots.

Terms of better suspension parts etc. Last i checked, 5 speed or 6 speed gearboxes come from tremec for mopar and chev. New suspension etc also comes from the same companies. So really they all use the same stuff mechanically. Which again comes to is the chevelle lightest based on size alone since suspension, brakes etc is all same on all from same aftermarket companies?

Mopars rarely lose in straight line. Power to weight ratio. 500hp in a charger or say a camaro, theres no way the charger would win. This again comes to my other point that my experience is mopar people are the worst. Just because its 'mopar' doesnt mean its fast. That is purely based on power to weight ratio not the name. In this case B-bodies being the worst of the lot, aka mopar. Some how the mentality is mopar or no car though. Shame name means nothing for performance but power-weight ratio, the very point B-bodies failed.

However if you remember my thread earlier about hemi/other, i tried to understand does 'hemi' at 700 HP mean faster than Wedge at 700hp. Conclusion is no. Hemi is a design that achieves power like other designs. In end its the figure and the curve not the name.

I do agree however if we go ultimate power, perhaps a hemi can make more (im talking 5000+ horsepower here).

So back to which is lighter. There all good cars, i had them all.

I am going to build car to certain spec, so whether i build a 70 chevelle at 700 HP or a dodge charger at 700hp or a roadrunner at 700hp... my guess was the chevelle would be the king because its smaller and lighter of the big 3. However maybe the others can be lighter for some reason and the only reason i can think of is unibody not full frame...

So what im trying to gauge ultimately is this:

All 3 (68 charger, 70 roadrunner, 70 chevelle) built to be the lightest possible, using alloy parts everywhere and carbon where existent. Full interior as its a street car. Same power in all 3 etc. Same driver in all 3. Which will handle the best and which will drag race the best.

My assumption is the chevelle. Shorter wheelbase, smaller car therefor lighter and thus to pick of the 3 which to make the chevelle will in the end be the best.

That is a very basic conclusion i come to. As stated, all 3 built correctly so that everything between them is equal, only difference is weight and size. So which one ends up better?

[nekkidhillbilly]

i would go out on a limb and say a torino would be better than any light cheaper than all 3.

[JAWSS]

Another Chevelle vote here but my dream grand touring car is a 69 Charger.

[benno505]

if you wanted to compare a b body with a camaro with the same horsepower than yes maybe the camaro will win, i was merely talking about both factory cars. Look at nascar in the late 60's early 70's mopar was 1, 2 and 3 nealluy all the time, as they were fast and handled well. i am sorry you got stuffed over by mopar people, b body rarer because TV and movies destroyed 3/4 of them. look at the movie Bullitt.
they needed 3 mustangs to 1 charger. the mustang needed engine upgrades, suspension upgrades to keep up with the charger, as it kept breaking or was too slow. and that was in a lighter car with a 390 big block. the charger did not have a single thing changed to it and they couldnt break it.

i am not saying mopars are the best because i own a mopar, im a car guy so i like all cars. but i every 4 out of 5 muscle cars you see are chebbies, which in my opinion does not make them standout or anything spectacular. but each there own. if i were to build a hefty race car i would probably also go with a torino or a camaro

[raustinss]

bit of mopar hatin going on. some words of inspiration: HEMI, 6 pack, best gearbox built, made some of the best looking muscle cars, had one of the best factory suspension setups, rarely gets beaten in a straight line, mopar people are more genuine, mopars are rarer so appreciated more.

you started this haha

Most popular engine, company has never been bought and sold like a used car,known for great drivetrain and until few years ago number one manufacturer for 80 plus years.......

Your turn

[Schwartz Performance]

I love torsion bars and leaf springs.. I mean if they're still using them in today's vehicles, that means they handle great right?

[High Plains Mopars]

Hey,
To build a pro-touring 68 charger, or 70 roadrunner, or 70 chevelle... which would overall be able to achieve more?

Which of the 3 would/can be made the lightest, so power-weight ratio for quick runs?

These are the 3 cars i like most and just wondered from a performance perspective, which would be the best 1/4 mile or handling.

Assuming the "more" consists of lightest, 1/4 mile, and handling, it can be all or it can be none. I have seen all three of these body styles in weight ranges from 3200 to 4200#. I've seen them with all with 20o cid six bangers to 600 cid mountain motors. Ive seen them wallow around corners like a drunken sailor and turn 20 second e.t.s while others can carve a corner like a Christmas turkey and slap you with a 9 second e.t.

BTW, you might want to update your title to Charger vs Chevelle. To a chevy guy, a B body is a Caprice and your Chevelle is an A body.

The only way to compare which can truly be lightest is to weigh the shell itself and decide how many lightweight goodies your wallet can actually support. There is a lot of CF and Ti stuff out there to make any muscle car scale like a Honda Civic if your wallet has the right power to weight ratio

-Tim

Here in is the crux of it all. Any car can be made uber light and mega powerful if you have the $$ to accomplish it. It just happens that for the vast majority of us, that can be most easily accomplished using a Chevy platform. This is because of the sheer number of these cars out there, the return on investment for someone to make specialized parts for a Chevy far outweighs the same effort for a Ford or Mopar, so there are going to be more selection at more price points for the Chevy.

As a Chevelle owner there is WAY more stuff for them,then the mopars. They also have a full frame which the mopars don't. y

Again, volume plays into the equation which means for most of us, cost is a factor. If it wasn't, we would all be building cars that were like the G-Force Cuda with no expense spared. The full frame deal, well most cars now are unitized and frames are regulated to trucks. Does that make it superior? Depends on the application and intention. Some very fast race cars are monocoque construction with no frame at all. Most saturday night racers are built on frames. I don't see this as a right or wrong situation.

bit of mopar hatin going on. some words of inspiration: HEMI, 6 pack, best gearbox built, made some of the best looking muscle cars, had one of the best factory suspension setups, rarely gets beaten in a straight line, mopar people are more genuine, mopars are rarer so appreciated more.
you started this haha

Lots of opinions there along with some very historically sounds items. You are entitled to them given your set of wheels. Having raced all three of the US Big Three, I can tell you they all have distinct advantages and dis-advantages. Similarly, I've run into plenty of great people as well as a fair share of jerks within all three makes.

Hey,
Also to go by genuinity, i lost all my money, got ripped off on, lied to etc by mopar people. My experience is, they are the worst of the lot who live in a parallel universe when it comes to value etc. Its mopar must be worth a milion dollars. Idiots.

You certainly got taken to the cleaners in some of your earlier dealings, but you also had a very clean and smooth transaction with some great people when you acquired your last Charger. Like I said earlier, I've run into really good and really bad people of all makes. It isn't limited to just Mopars but there seems to be less range in the Mopar camp. The tend to be great, or major jerks. Not much in between. However, I can't disagree much with Mopar owners perception of value. I'll point out more towards that further below.

New suspension etc also comes from the same companies. So really they all use the same stuff mechanically. Which again comes to is the chevelle lightest based on size alone since suspension, brakes etc is all same on all from same aftermarket companies?

Here you are incorrect. The only company that makes suspension parts for all three makes is Hotchkis. Otherwise, almost all of these aftermarket companies concentrate on usually one specific brand. Detroit Speed is starting to get into some Ford parts, but currently, sticking to one car make will limit you suspension choices to a select number of vendors who chose different ways to address the factory shortcoming.

However if you remember my thread earlier about hemi/other, i tried to understand does 'hemi' at 700 HP mean faster than Wedge at 700hp. Conclusion is no. Hemi is a design that achieves power like other designs. In end its the figure and the curve not the name.

I do agree however if we go ultimate power, perhaps a hemi can make more (im talking 5000+ horsepower here).

I missed that thread but something you haven't considered here is the ease of making that power. The opposed valve layout of the Hemi means it makes that power more efficiently than a comparable wedge at any power level, not just at nitro racing levels. Look at what a Kaase Boss 9 can put out. The same can be said about multi-cam motors who also have opposed valves. Ford and Pontiac were all also playing with Hemi motors in the late 60s early 70s, but outside forces all conspired to kill their programs before they gained much name recognition. However, as engineers have learned more about engines in the 40 years since the muscle era, additional means of efficiency have come about which is how new muscle cars are able to make as much stock power as the classics, and do so without the mileage and drive-ability sacrifice.

That is a very basic conclusion i come to. As stated, all 3 built correctly so that everything between them is equal, only difference is weight and size. So which one ends up better?

Better at what? These are all considered mid sized cars. A few inches here, a couple pounds there are not going to make huge differences between them, depending on how they are being utilized. Obviously if they are in an autocross designed for Miatas, they all have a huge dis-advantage. If they are on an open road race like the Silver State, the longer wheelbase is an advantage.

i would go out on a limb and say a torino would be better than any light cheaper than all 3.

You may actually be correct. A friend of mine asked me about helping him sell his Falcon recently. I agreed and began researching pricing thinking his car was an easy $18-20k model. Nope, its worth about $12k tops. Coming from a predominately Mopar background, I was surprised by how inexpensive it can be to get into a Falcon. Torinos are pretty decently priced too. Much better than any Mopar or 1st Gen Camaro or even some of the Chevelles I've seen. However, when you start looking at making significant modifications form stock, aftermarket support can really alter the total cost in involved to build any of them.

Most popular engine, company has never been bought and sold like a used car,known for great drivetrain and until few years ago number one manufacturer for 80 plus years.......

Your turn

I'll give you the most popular engine in the small block. Of course until recently it required you replace most of the factory parts to get it to respectable power levels, but yes, there are 100 million small block chevys out there. That's a lot. I think the simple breadth of all the brands they own would naturally make GM the biggest auto maker for 8 decades. No big secret there. Par it down to any single marque and it changes drastically. Bought and sold, well, if that's a criteria, then bankruptcy also counts and we should all be Ford fans.

How else should we slice this? how about within the classic muscle car era from 1965 to 1974? Nascar Manufacturers championships: Chrysler products-4, Ford products-3, GM products-2. Since we like cars that turn right and left and stop well here, how about Trans Am; Ford products-3, GM products-3, AMC-2, Chrysler-0. NHRA; how would we even begin here. Pro stock didn't really begin until the muscle cars were disappearing. Stock and Super stock may be the ticket, but there was never really a national championship in these catagories in that time frame. Certainly the 409 vs Mopar Super Stocks races are legendary and for all intent, Ford pushed the creation of funny cars with the tube chassis FX/A Comets. But it was the Hemi powered Mopars that dominated SS/A classes for the better part of 40 years.

I love torsion bars and leaf springs.. I mean if they're still using them in today's vehicles, that means they handle great right?

For the last 100 years, there have only been 4 ways to spring a vehicle; leaf, coil, torsion, and air. Have you got some new, yet to be released technology to add to that list? There are some advantages/disadvantages to different methods, but they are all effective to some degree or we wouldn't still be using them. I'd also contend that just because you have the newest, lightest, most sophisticated spring package doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be the fastest one around the track and unless you are competing where you need to constantly adjust rates or pivots, most street drivers really don't need much more than basic set ups, even those of us who fancy ourselves as performance drivers.

[raustinss]

Here here.....
P. S. Ford didn't go into bankruptcy do to the 18 billion it put on the line a few years before hand, Ford put so much on the line it only just recently (1 year or so ) got possession of its own famous ford blue oval. Just to inform anyone who wasn't aware of this . Now let's put the thread hijacking to bed please. My apologies

[Schwartz Performance]

Yikes

[Schwartz Performance]

By the way we make chassis for GM Ford and Mopar, and have done so for the last 5 years. Even did a Gremlin once. ;)

-Dale

[Removed user as requested]

If Hemi is more efficient at producing power... there are Hemi heads available on Chev engines these days making them 'Hemis' as well. *scratches head*

[silvermonte]

There sure is http://nickariasjr.com/bb-chevy-hemi.asp