1972 Monte Carlo Front Suspension

[Mully]

First of all I am a new guy to the Pro-Touring forum and a bit confused by all the modern front suspension options for the A-Body cars. I have done a fair amour of reading and searching but I think it is time to ask a few questions.

The car is a 1972 Monte Carlo with an original front end…I mean factory original front suspension..springs, ball joints, tie rod ends, shocks…everything is as it left GM. No joke! Might have 75K total miles on the car since new. I have had the car since 1973 or 1974 and it has been in the garage much more than it has been on the road. That said the bushings and what not are pretty dried out / tired out. To say the least it is time for a rebuild since it has been 40+ years since those factory parts went in there.



If I am going to redo the front suspension it seems to make sense to redo with better geometry parts that are available these days. I want to get better handling / breaking but I don't need to be able to totally defy gravity and the laws of physics with an all out cornering / breaking setup. This is more a budged upgrade that has been kicked off by the need to look at the front end parts that have been in there since 1972. I most likely will retain the original Rally wheels given that the goal is a more or less stock look with subtile internal improvements. I don't need to slam the car down onto the ground..stock ride height could work, I won't put really wide sticky tires on it. It is all about subtile improvements within a budget.

So with that said what are your thoughts…new upper and lower A-arms? New stock heigh spindles? Both spindles and A-arms? Coil overs? Y/N/ ? The issue is that I don't know enough to make decisions on the scope of replacement and make the call about what vendor parts will do what I want AND will play together in a simple bolt in during a weekend of work. I have outlined what I want to do with the car up above. I would appreciate any thoughts you might have or any questions that you have for me to answer so that you guys can help me out.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over.

[raustinss]

Call Marcus at sc&c...Google them....he is a wizard with gm a bodies. He can suggest what will work best for your intended use and budget..also sells product too...good luck
Ryan Austin

[UMI Performance]

Hello Mully, Welcome to the site! You will find a lot of good information here and a lot of people will to help!

Mark over at SC&C is excellent to deal with. I would also encourage you to call our engineer here at UMI and pick his brain, he is happy to help over the phone with out trying to sell you products. Ramey at 814-343-6315.

I will supply a little information here, please feel free to ask any questions. We can change the vehicles geometry by using factory spindles and installing taller ball joints into the a-arms. A taller ball joint in an a-arm will simulate a taller spindle. So by doing this you save money by not purchasing a new spindle since you can use your factory spindle. The a-arms also have positive caster built into them for increase steering response and a tighter steering feel. For springs you can go with a standard coil spring or a coil over kit, based on what you say above I think a coil over kit would be overkill for the car. In most cases a 1" lowering spring won't lower the car the full 1", this is assuming your factory springs are sagging after 42 years of service. But new springs like ours have increased spring rate for firm ride yet comfortable, they are ideal for cruise and autox. For shocks, we sell and recommend Bilstein or ridetech, the ridetech is little more expensive but they also have some adjustment built in for rebound.

I posted a few links below, please take a look and see what you think. These links can also help you learn a little about what you want to do with the car.

A-Arms- http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=621

Springs- http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=748

I hope this information helps. Please ask and we will be glad to assist you!

Ryan

[BMR Sales]

Mully, I know you said you've had the car for quite a while, but what are your plans with the car? This can change what advise that I can give you.

Feel Free to give me a call.

And Welcome to P-T!

T.C.

[raustinss]

Although I don't have any of the products sold by UMI or BMR, my. 02$ is they're both quite reputable and offer excellent quality products. I can say I've never heard one bad word about either company from products thru to customer service. Good luck with your project
Ryan Austin

[Mully]

Although I don't have any of the products sold by UMI or BMR, my. 02$ is they're both quite reputable and offer excellent quality products. I can say I've never heard one bad word about either company from products thru to customer service. Good luck with your project
Ryan Austin

Thanks for the info, I really hate doing things like this over because of shoddy parts. A suppliers' reputation is very important to me.

For UMI and BMR I had plans to make some calls this week but had a couple of those "life ( in one case death actually) gets in the way" events this last few days.

A general question for anyone who wants to take a shot. Any answers will feed my "suspension rookie" thought processes while I sort all this personal stuff out. I am going to need front springs and shocks…control arms are in the "do it while it is apart and get better handling as a bonus" category. I can change calipers and sway bars and other things later…my strategy is get the front ctrl arms / bushings shocks springs and spindles (if needed) done first then bolt other parts on later. I like the idea of the adjustability of coil overs (remember I need shocks and springs already). Are there frame mod..welding etc needed to go to coil overs?

[raustinss]

Global west makes a extended travel coilovers kit for the front of all GM A bodies . I'd like to assume that your going to lower the car. Whenever you lower a GM A body the front end geometry goes for a shi* which is why alot of companies produce aftermarket control arms this should be your first move if you can afford it go to a ats AFX spindle. It uses a corvette hub so any modern brakes can bolt on. For the rear same sort of issue when you lower the rear it changes the instant center leading to wheel hop and further geometry problems. Some guys use anti hop bars. Others use adjustable control arms. I'm not a expert by any means and this conversation could continue for quite some time, talk to the pros they all should be able to steer you in the right direction with what's best for a starting point and also budget
Good luck
Ryan Austin

[Mully]

Global west makes a extended travel coilovers kit for the front of all GM A bodies . I'd like to assume that your going to lower the car. Whenever you lower a GM A body the front end geometry goes for a shi* which is why alot of companies produce aftermarket control arms this should be your first move if you can afford it go to a ats AFX spindle. It uses a corvette hub so any modern brakes can bolt on. For the rear same sort of issue when you lower the rear it changes the instant center leading to wheel hop and further geometry problems. Some guys use anti hop bars. Others use adjustable control arms. I'm not a expert by any means and this conversation could continue for quite some time, talk to the pros they all should be able to steer you in the right direction with what's best for a starting point and also budget
Good luck
Ryan Austin

Ryan

On the matter of lowering the car….no I don't want to drop it down. Those Gen I MC cars are a bit lower in front already (due to the long heavy hood and in my case a BBC with A/C). I hope to maintain as much of a stock visual look as possible with the improvements under the skin. Same issue with the rear…I want to leave the ride height as close as possible to original. I like the adj. coil overs because I think I might be able to make minor height adjustments with front coil overs. The thought of swapping springs into and out of the front trying to get the ride height I want is not where I want to be. "One and done" as folks say. If coil overs necessitate welding well that is something else again. I need springs and shocks and given the fact that I want new front ctrl arms for the improved geometry.I might consider taller spindles for this effort but I don't want dropped spindles. Those take me back to a lowered front end!

Ray

[BMR Sales]

Thanks for the info, I really hate doing things like this over because of shoddy parts. A suppliers' reputation is very important to me.

For UMI and BMR I had plans to make some calls this week but had a couple of those "life ( in one case death actually) gets in the way" events this last few days.

A general question for anyone who wants to take a shot. Any answers will feed my "suspension rookie" thought processes while I sort all this personal stuff out. I am going to need front springs and shocks…control arms are in the "do it while it is apart and get better handling as a bonus" category. I can change calipers and sway bars and other things later…my strategy is get the front ctrl arms / bushings shocks springs and spindles (if needed) done first then bolt other parts on later. I like the idea of the adjustability of coil overs (remember I need shocks and springs already). Are there frame mod..welding etc needed to go to coil overs?

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

[Mully]

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

Thanks for the kind words…something very vey unexpected. Hits you hard.

Stuck here in the house in Atlanta in this DISASTER with the roads right now. Doing my research…then going to try to retrieve my car later today…it is not too far from home fortunately!

Interesting picture, might be something I would consider. I think you are talking about 2 separate things…the Viking Kit and something new from BMR. Is that right?

We do need to talk one on one but for now can you elaborate on the differences between the Viking and the new yet to be completed BMR kit. My major issue is securing the upper end of the Coil Over. I am hoping I can accomplish this as a bolt in but of course the "Dependability" / "Reliability" of that bolt in install is very important to me.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Mully-

First off we agree with T.C., sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you and your family can find some comfort in trying times.

This post is a bit lengthy, just trying to cover all your questions...

Personally I like the cars that are a little less mainstream. I remember first noticing a first gen Monte when I was young. I always thought it had great body lines and although it's meant to be a little more on the luxury side it looked plenty like a tough muscle car. I also thought those huge fan shrouds looked totally cool, call me weird I guess. Seeing one with a 454 and 12 bolt was even cooler.

I commend you for your self control. In a world where we often think we need to throw a catalog at our cars to keep up with the Jones' it's nice to chat with someone who is looking to make some minor improvements for a little nicer ride as you take the muscle car out for some nice cruising. Hats off to ya.

Going to an inexpensive drop spindle isn't what you want. If you're going to invest in spindles, (Thanks for the plug Ryan) our tall ATS AFX spindle can't be beat. However, in your case and based on what you've said, they might be overkill. If you're simply after some mild upgrades while you're in there, changing spindles at all really isn't necessary. They're not a wearing part and they're sufficient enough for a cruiser.

I feel where you're coming from with the springs. When I first started building my coil spring based car I was new to the whole pro touring thing and have gone through the laborious and costly trial of trying to get things dialed in. I've had the springs out now to change things up 5 times and it still isn't exactly what I want. Coilovers are on deck, I'm sick of messing around with it. As has been said a simple spring swap might be a cheap and easy way to do it. But for a better than stock spring, for the most part they'll be a "lowered" spring, and you really roll the dice as to how much the car will drop. Trust me it isn't fun to expect one thing, go through the trouble of swapping parts, and get something else.

With that said, being a big block MC with A/C your car likely came with the 487 lb spring rate heavy duty front springs. If you were to jump up to a 550lb spring on a coilover that would stiffen it up just a bit in the corners but still give a decent ride. From that base point you could use the adjustability of the shock to dial in how soft or stiff you like your ride. For a little extra oomph if you do decide to hit an occasional auto cross, you can simply dial the shock for a little firmer ride to gain a little more corner control. You'd be really surprised how shock dampening will affect handling.

Control arms are an easy way to get headed in the right direction for correcting some factory poor geometry issues. Combine a good arm with built in geometry corrections and a decent performance alignment and you'll find a noticeable improvement in cornering responsiveness without killing how the car rides.

Since you want to keep it at stock ride height and maintain the 15" rally muscle car look, I'm assuming you're not really much interested in a corner carver. With that in mind you may or may not want to keep the factory sway bar(s). Some advantages of swapping sway bars is eliminating some body roll without changing the general ride of the car, and you're already in there so it's just a few extra bolts to swap them out. Chances are you'll enjoy the improvement they make.

So now what? There are so many options and companies to go with it can sometimes be overwhelming. We've considered this very thing and try to base our products on simple packages, based on the budget, needs and wants of the customer, and levels of expected increased performance.

First off I suggest you have a look at our (click the name for a link) Road assault package. It includes larger diameter tubular upper and lower control arms with Delrin bushings, stainless cross shafts, and heavy duty ball joints. They're super strong, decrease unsprung weight, and change your caster for better handling. They're also easy for the alignment shop and align in the same way a factory arm does. Also included in the kit is a double adjustable hybrid coilover shock. They are just as easy to install as changing a factory shock but has all the advantages of a coilover- adjusting ride height, shock rebound and compression are all fairly simple. Our kit includes an adjusting wrench and thrust bearings so you don't have to buy them separately. The nicest thing is you get to set everything to your personal tastes, not a generic "hope its right for you" setting. It also includes a larger tubular sway bar that will help with the body roll, and new billet adjusting sleeves for less flex and easier alignment adjustment. With this kit you're pretty much done, you simply add the tie rod ends of your choice. If you are ok with your factory sway bar, check out our Pro Touring package, it's the same kit minus the sway bar.

For the rear, are you happy with it as is? If you want to upgrade we have a rear suspension kit that includes stronger Articulink trailing arms that help eliminate the suspension bind associated with 4 link rear suspensions, and if you want to get into it you can adjust them for optimum pinion angle. Our kit's sway bar is matched to our front bar and is easily adjustable to get the right front to rear balance on your specific car. It also uses the much more effective frame mount system rather than the less effective factory trailing arm mount configuration. Finally the kit includes a matched set of double adjustable coilover shocks and a bolt-in coilover conversion bracket kit.

The advantages to all the above is it's exactly what you're looking for, doesn't require any mods outside of what you were already anticipating doing, allows ride height and comfort adjustability, yields better handling, eliminates guessing with coil springs and saves $ by maintaining some factory parts you were thinking of replacing. Another real advantage is if later down the road you want to get crazy on the autocross, throwing on some tall spindles, maybe changing the spring rate on the shocks, and using taller wheels/ lower profile tires will just about get you there.

Hope this helps. Feel free to contact us with any further questions at 435.628.4300. We're here to help you get what you want and will give you a good time behind the wheel.

[Mully]

Hey Mully-

First off we agree with T.C., sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you and your family can find some comfort in trying times.

This post is a bit lengthy, just trying to cover all your questions...

Personally I like the cars that are a little less mainstream. I remember first noticing a first gen Monte when I was young. I always thought it had great body lines and although it's meant to be a little more on the luxury side it looked plenty like a tough muscle car. I also thought those huge fan shrouds looked totally cool, call me weird I guess. Seeing one with a 454 and 12 bolt was even cooler.

I commend you for your self control. In a world where we often think we need to throw a catalog at our cars to keep up with the Jones' it's nice to chat with someone who is looking to make some minor improvements for a little nicer ride as you take the muscle car out for some nice cruising. Hats off to ya.

Going to an inexpensive drop spindle isn't what you want. If you're going to invest in spindles, (Thanks for the plug Ryan) our tall ATS AFX spindle can't be beat. However, in your case and based on what you've said, they might be overkill. If you're simply after some mild upgrades while you're in there, changing spindles at all really isn't necessary. They're not a wearing part and they're sufficient enough for a cruiser.

I feel where you're coming from with the springs. When I first started building my coil spring based car I was new to the whole pro touring thing and have gone through the laborious and costly trial of trying to get things dialed in. I've had the springs out now to change things up 5 times and it still isn't exactly what I want. Coilovers are on deck, I'm sick of messing around with it. As has been said a simple spring swap might be a cheap and easy way to do it. But for a better than stock spring, for the most part they'll be a "lowered" spring, and you really roll the dice as to how much the car will drop. Trust me it isn't fun to expect one thing, go through the trouble of swapping parts, and get something else.

With that said, being a big block MC with A/C your car likely came with the 487 lb spring rate heavy duty front springs. If you were to jump up to a 550lb spring on a coilover that would stiffen it up just a bit in the corners but still give a decent ride. From that base point you could use the adjustability of the shock to dial in how soft or stiff you like your ride. For a little extra oomph if you do decide to hit an occasional auto cross, you can simply dial the shock for a little firmer ride to gain a little more corner control. You'd be really surprised how shock dampening will affect handling.

Control arms are an easy way to get headed in the right direction for correcting some factory poor geometry issues. Combine a good arm with built in geometry corrections and a decent performance alignment and you'll find a noticeable improvement in cornering responsiveness without killing how the car rides.

Since you want to keep it at stock ride height and maintain the 15" rally muscle car look, I'm assuming you're not really much interested in a corner carver. With that in mind you may or may not want to keep the factory sway bar(s). Some advantages of swapping sway bars is eliminating some body roll without changing the general ride of the car, and you're already in there so it's just a few extra bolts to swap them out. Chances are you'll enjoy the improvement they make.

So now what? There are so many options and companies to go with it can sometimes be overwhelming. We've considered this very thing and try to base our products on simple packages, based on the budget, needs and wants of the customer, and levels of expected increased performance.

First off I suggest you have a look at our (click the name for a link) Road assault package. It includes larger diameter tubular upper and lower control arms with Delrin bushings, stainless cross shafts, and heavy duty ball joints. They're super strong, decrease unsprung weight, and change your caster for better handling. They're also easy for the alignment shop and align in the same way a factory arm does. Also included in the kit is a double adjustable hybrid coilover shock. They are just as easy to install as changing a factory shock but has all the advantages of a coilover- adjusting ride height, shock rebound and compression are all fairly simple. Our kit includes an adjusting wrench and thrust bearings so you don't have to buy them separately. The nicest thing is you get to set everything to your personal tastes, not a generic "hope its right for you" setting. It also includes a larger tubular sway bar that will help with the body roll, and new billet adjusting sleeves for less flex and easier alignment adjustment. With this kit you're pretty much done, you simply add the tie rod ends of your choice. If you are ok with your factory sway bar, check out our Pro Touring package, it's the same kit minus the sway bar.

For the rear, are you happy with it as is? If you want to upgrade we have a rear suspension kit that includes stronger Articulink trailing arms that help eliminate the suspension bind associated with 4 link rear suspensions, and if you want to get into it you can adjust them for optimum pinion angle. Our kit's sway bar is matched to our front bar and is easily adjustable to get the right front to rear balance on your specific car. It also uses the much more effective frame mount system rather than the less effective factory trailing arm mount configuration. Finally the kit includes a matched set of double adjustable coilover shocks and a bolt-in coilover conversion bracket kit.

The advantages to all the above is it's exactly what you're looking for, doesn't require any mods outside of what you were already anticipating doing, allows ride height and comfort adjustability, yields better handling, eliminates guessing with coil springs and saves $ by maintaining some factory parts you were thinking of replacing. Another real advantage is if later down the road you want to get crazy on the autocross, throwing on some tall spindles, maybe changing the spring rate on the shocks, and using taller wheels/ lower profile tires will just about get you there.

Hope this helps. Feel free to contact us with any further questions at 435.628.4300. We're here to help you get what you want and will give you a good time behind the wheel.

Lot of reading there!!!! For now the front suspension is my area of interest. The rear is Phase II You responded on a prior "New to the Board" thread of mine but in case you don't connect this thread and the "New Guy" thread…here are pics of the car as it sits now.

LS6 454 Crate Motor (Gen IV)
67 Vette 3x2
5 Speed
3.31 12 Bolt

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Yeah OK, how could I forget the 6 pack. That really is a wicked cool setup!

[raustinss]

Hey Ben do I get a set of spindles for giving my vote to use them....because I need a set....and would love love them lol
Ryan Austin

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Sure Ryan, you can have a set, as long you pay for them first. lol!

[Mully]

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

From the message above "This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over."

Ahhh???? A true coil over versus a "false" coil over? They say the only dumb question is the unasked question so I must ask. What is the difference between a true coil over and another style coil over? Are we talking about the mounting method at the top side of the coil over as pictured immediately above? Can you give me any info on your new product for coil over conversions? Perhaps pics of the mounting points / mounting hardware?

[Mully]

For Ben at Speedtech


Not sure the 3x2 is the fastest setup / most efficient setup a 4 BBL might be just as good however there is no denying the eye candy factor of the carbs. FWIW those carbs were done by a Corvette carb refirb. specialist in St. Louis. Before he got 'em they looked like they had been laying in THE DIRT at a JUNKYARD for YEARS. Out of the box..onto the engine and the car just started right up. Even the idle was almost dead on right out of the box because he runs the carbs on a mule engine before he ships them back. The center carb is essentially the same as the front of a Holley 4 BBL and outboard carbs come in as smooth as silk. Not EFI for sure but I like em.

[csouth]

From the message above "This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over."

Ahhh???? A true coil over versus a "false" coil over? They say the only dumb question is the unasked question so I must ask. What is the difference between a true coil over and another style coil over? Are we talking about the mounting method at the top side of the coil over as pictured immediately above? Can you give me any info on your new product for coil over conversions? Perhaps pics of the mounting points / mounting hardware?

What BMR is trying to state is a true coilover vs a hybrid coilover. A true coilover mounts as you stated like the one in the picture. With a hybrid front coilover for and A body the upper spring sits in the perch of the frame just like a conventional shock/spring setup.

[Mully]

What BMR is trying to state is a true coilover vs a hybrid coilover. A true coilover mounts as you stated like the one in the picture. With a hybrid front coilover for and A body the upper spring sits in the perch of the frame just like a conventional shock/spring setup.

OK that is what I thought. Now the question…how does one attach the top of a true coil over to the A-Body as in the picture. Are there bracket(s) that weld onto the A-body frame? Is surgery required to what would be the upper spring seat area for the true coil over to fit the A-Body frame?

Last point I guess. Hybrid coil over versus true coil over…..plus and minus of each would be what?

[csouth]

OK that is what I thought. Now the question…how does one attach the top of a true coil over to the A-Body as in the picture. Are there bracket(s) that weld onto the A-body frame? Is surgery required to what would be the upper spring seat area for the true coil over to fit the A-Body frame?

Last point I guess. Hybrid coil over versus true coil over…..plus and minus of each would be what?

I know that these are currently available. I believe UMI is working on one and it appears BMR has one in the works too.
Speedtech sells the Chicane kit

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/...rod/prd272.htm

Global West sells an extended travel kit

http://www.globalwest.net/cof-42-che...tcoilover.html

The hybrid coilover setup can place sideload on the coilover and can also have coil bind because the spring is short.

You might want to invest in this book

http://scandc.com/new/node/4

Marc is here on the forum from time to time and is also available by phone for suspension advice. Be prepared to listen and learn as he knows more than you would ever need to know about suspension tuning.