Turn corners and run 8's??

[SRD art]

I still say any tire, drag or turney, that is a slick with a couple grooves isn't a street tire, even with DOT stamped on it somewhere. Those should maybe be outlawed from street car events IMO. Real radials with real grooves should be what the Dr. ordered. I've put street miles on full on Firestone slicks, wrinkle wall M&Hs with only 2 circumfrancial (sp?) grooves, and my BFG Drag radials. I felt much more safe and less nervous with the BFGs, by far.

Part of my point is that who drives to the autocross with "DOT" road course slicks on the car? Aren't those type cars typically trailered to autocross events? Much like a drag car with slicks is? MANY folks take along extra tires and swap at the track. It's normal to do that and I'm not sure who made the rule or where it says in the rules of pro-touring somewhere that doing so makes your car not a street car anymore.



The other part of my point is it's a safety issue at the track. Running really fast at the drag strip on 200-300 compound street/ autocross type tires borderlines stupidity. Breaking the tires loose in 3rd gear at 110 mph would be like driving on ice and doesn't make an event fun, it makes it scary. That's why I suggest to allow drag tires where they NEED to be. I'm really surprised PHR and LS fest hasn't allowed drag tire changes, that's a law suit waiting to happen. Maybe it's just that they feel none of the cars are really fast enough to warrant drag tires, but from what I've seen I would have to disagree.

[dontlifttoshift]

A law suit? Really?

The idea that breaking the tires loose at 110 in a straight line on a prepped drag strip is unsafe but doing the same at a road course is okay.....that's absurd.

I don't care to argue about Pro Touring's roots or its definition but when all the event promoters held their ground at 200 TW despite what anyone else was doing says to me that it is all about street tires. SCCA is adopting 200 treadwear for Solo competition as well. Just like people learned to make drag radials hook up and work, the same can be done for 200 tw tires, if not, so what? The playing field is level for all competitors in all segments of the event.

There are guys that drive A6s to events, they are not many, and I agree, not smart, but it does happen.

You guys don't want to hear this.....
Drag Racing = fast car
RoadRace/AutoX = fast driver

But running 9s on a street tire? That takes one hell of a shoe I would think, You gotta pull gears like Ronnie Sox, pedal like John Force, and cut lights like Dave Connolly

[LS1NOVA]

That's freakin' awesome. I'm sure you are one of only a hand full of pro-touring cars that has been in the nines. What are you running for suspension?


The nice thing about drag racing is that they give you that little slip of paper at the end of each run. It would be nice to have one or more all inclusive events, but to me, it's enough just to show up at a track day and/or autocross with your time slip and have at it. I think there's a lot to be learned and showcased about available traction from various brands of pro-touring suspension. That discussion is just as relevant at 9.53 or even 10.53.

Front is SC&C stage 2+, stock lowers, Viking DA coilovers, 250 or 450 springs.

Rear is Caltrac split mono leaf, Caltac bars, minitub, Viking DA shocks. Not the normal corner carver setup but suprisingly it works well.

I kind of like the concept of one car to do it all. Whats wrong with 2-3 sets of tires? Slicks, R-comp and Street. its 3 different races all on the same day with transit between them. Give points out for places in each competition. The most points at the end of the days wins. (This keeps each discipline evenly weighted) If you want or need to change out suspension components, so-be-it. As long as you make it to the start line at your given time its fine by me. Its about who has the fastest do-it-all car right? Not do it-all setup. If thats the case, you might as well go back to street tires only.

I agree with this also, its just most people dont.

There is such a big difference between cars that run 8's, 9's and 10's too. Cost goes up and on streetability declines. Still, it would be a great contest to see who has the most versatile street car.

You havent been introduced to the world of turbos have you? Ha Ha, 500whp to 1000whp is just a flip of a switch.

[LS1NOVA]

The point Im trying to make is wouldnt it be more entertaining to see cars running around the autox course and road course then doing this:



Im confident I could get the car in the mid 9's on a 200 treadwear tire, but 8's not going to happen.

[Nicks67GTO]

I kind of think keeping street tires would make this kind of event a much more level playing field and rely much more on the driver. If slicks are involved, its going to be whoever brings the biggest baddest highest HP car to the table that wins the drag event. Without slicks you better be able to pedal that 1000hp rocket and contain its fury, just like you would have to hammering it on the street. I think slicks automatically turns something like this into a giant money flinging contest that most regular guys have 0 chance at winning. Maybe in the hypothetical power adder/unlimited class slicks should be allowed but not in either old or new school class?

Thoughts?

[Steve Chryssos]

Running sub-10 sec ET's on short sidewall pro-touring tires is dangerous. There is just enough grip to produce triple digit speeds and just enough slippage to get someone hurt at half track.

It's fine to use pro-touring tires for every other facet (street, autocross, road course), then turn 10 little lug nuts and swap out the rear tires for drag radials. Unless pro-touring means not knowing how to change a tire?

[dontlifttoshift]

Racing is dangerous.

Steve, like I said in the other thread, I will never argue safety, however I would like someone to explain to me how driving on a dragstrip is different than the front straight at Gingerman. Stielow's car will do 4th gear roll on burnouts, so why is the prepped dragstrip worse than the roadcourse for 200 tw tires.

[Steve Chryssos]

Because the car's already moving when it comes off the corner. That's a big difference. Why is turning lug nuts so bad? If my pro-touring car gets a flat, should I just walk away from it and never look back? Set it on fire? Donate it to Jerry's kids?

[GrabberGT]

Racing is dangerous.

Steve, like I said in the other thread, I will never argue safety, however I would like someone to explain to me how driving on a dragstrip is different than the front straight at Gingerman. Stielow's car will do 4th gear roll on burnouts, so why is the prepped dragstrip worse than the roadcourse for 200 tw tires.

Racing is dangerous. Perhaps there are qualifications that need to be met in order to race at this level. It wouldnt be the first event to do so.

I'll add another that seams to be missed here. "Racing is expensive". If you want to be in this race, you better be bringing a pair of slicks, pair of street tires, and a pair of road race tires. You'll need to have boost on dial and or Nitrous to flip on. Change control arms, adjust shocks, add/remove/manipulate weight. (driver change???) Have a trailer to tow it all in and know your stuff because you have a start time to be ready for.


People like myself cannot expect to show up and compete with the big dogs. Maybe there are multiple classes like drag week, maybe not. Besides, dont we already have events for us? LS Fest, ASCS, RTTH, optima.... But its the race as I described above that I want to see and I thought was the basis of this thread.

[Rat Fink]

Just my $.02, but as soon as you allow tire changes, suspension changes, etc. you make it about cubic dollars. It would produce some really awesome cars at first, but the pool of people with the money and willingness to compete would quickly dwindle. Hot Rod Dragweek's unlimited class is a good example. One guy has won multiple times and the number of cars that can really compete at that level is pretty small considering the number of people that compete overall. Not knocking the idea, just giving my opinion.

[Steve Chryssos]

Well here's how we do it: One car. Two sets of rear tires, two sets of rear wheels. A jack, torque wrench. That's it. Hot rodders have had a spare set of rear wheels and tires since forever. Two Lane Blacktop? Yup. Spare set of rear wheels and tires in the trunk. Also they changed jets TWICE in that movie. How #%^@-ed up is that?

[Steve Chryssos]

The point Im trying to make is wouldnt it be more entertaining to see cars running around the autox course and road course then doing this:



Im confident I could get the car in the mid 9's on a 200 treadwear tire, but 8's not going to happen.

That's a great looking car by the way!

[Doug1]

I am trying to meet that goal with the Triple Threat build. It has the same rear setup as Unfair and plenty of juice. It still only 1/2 done at this point.




Has a 3 link and a 4 link in the rear. Springs and shocks for each corner are quick change. Should be able to convert from drag to corner carver in less than an hour.

[Steve Chryssos]

Very cool. Don't let anyone tell you it ain't a pro-touring car, just because you swapped a few parts or tires.

[dontlifttoshift]

[

Because the car's already moving when it comes off the corner. That's a big difference.

I agree, I thought we were talking about 100 mph at the 1/8 mile and loosing traction.....at least that is what SRD mentioned. If a car leaves the line and it hooks into a guardrail that is almost always a part failure or the loose nut behind the wheel.

Why is turning lug nuts so bad? If my pro-touring car gets a flat, should I just walk away from it and never look back? Set it on fire? Donate it to Jerry's kids?

Don't misunderstand me, I have no fear of turning lug nuts. If the straight line guys get drag radials, then why not DOT hoosiers for the corner carvers? Recently many guys have argued that autoxing on street tires in the SuperStock classes is dangerous and death and lawsuits would be the result if they were forced to run on street (200 tw) tires. I found that point of view to equally absurd. To me the fear in that case and this one is the possibility of the driver running out of talent and not being able to manage available traction, which is what all forms of autoracing are about.

As mentioned, it wouldn't be long before the "Golden Rule" of racing applied. Most people reading this thread understand that making enough power to go 8s or even 9s is way easier than managing it for 5 to 10 laps. With 200 TW tires as the limiter, you eliminate a lot of broken parts in the 1st 60 feet and negate the necessity to make 1200+ horsepower which allows more people to actually compete at the pointy end of a given class.

I like the idea behind the event and think it would be a metric ****ton of fun.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm good with all that. The funny thing is when you go to the local drags and swap tires, no one makes a fuss. Same goes for 140 TW tires at a local SCCA meet or local track day club event.

...and that's exactly what I do.

[72BBSwinger]

I can see this is heading in a slightly negative direction with tire talk. LS1Nova wants a contest where his car would obviously shine, dont blame you but that is obvious. I think its a great contest and MCOTY is already basically there but IMO is lame in the 1/4 mile arena because of the tire mandate. There already is 275DR drag racing all over the country, yippee. I think the tire mandates in ALL OR ANY contest is BS. A 200TW mandate gives a ton of cash to BFG and Falken. BS again IMO. There are plenty of good tires out there that are not stamped with a 200AA on the side but if I dont run them im cheating? What if im saving money and using a tire that works and lasts better and longer? Whatever, how about allow any tire other than a Hoosier or R1 and just let the games begin? As far as the drag racing portion just let somebody run whatever they can fit under the back and call it good. A slick is gonna shine and be safer with the stupid high power cars and this is a problem? Who cares, it pisses me off I have to spend more money for a tire that is stamped with 200AA on the side than one with 100,140 or 180AA and it does nothing for my car over the lower ratings except appease the good ole boys who're cashing in. Edit: its neat to see tire limited Drag Racing=$$$$$$$$. Like this F.A.S.T small block Duster that runs 10.70's while appearing like its an OEM Gold certified resto on STOCK bias ply Goodyears. My point is we dont need anymore racing classes with TIRE rules. All it ends up doing is making the guy with the biggest checkbook a winner.

[dontlifttoshift]

I think the tire mandates in ALL OR ANY contest is BS.

Whatever, how about allow any tire other than a Hoosier or R1 and just let the games begin? .

^^^^In the same paragraph?

Here are the rest of the 200 TW tires that also get their "pockets lined"

Hankook RS3
Bridgestone RE-11A
Dunlop Direzza Star Spec ZII
and I will Throw in the Michelin PS2s as well as the Super Sports.

There will be more to come, Hoosier is working on a 200 TW tire as we speak and it should be ready for next years autocross season.

Pretty sure BFG throws some loose change at our events as well.

The guy with the biggest checkbook is almost always the winner, if not now he will be. But as long as you can OUTDRIVE your oponents checkbook car everyone can stay involved. 200 tw tires, at the moment, seem to ensure that the best driver, not the most expensive car win the hardware.

[72BBSwinger]

What I was kinda eluding to was IMO 200aa is nothing more than a stamp on a tire. But at the same time so is "DOT" like on a A6 or R1. If you want to equalize the field just make everyone run the same tire period. 275/35/18 max. What do you think of that idea? That would definitely separate the drivers from the checkbook holders. And allowing a no tire rule in the drag race portion would allow it to be more than a pedal fest plus be SAFER.

[LS1NOVA]

Make everyone run the same tires and limit to 275? You're kidding right?