Protouring Raffle Poll

[69rs]

Y'all just hurry up and build my car! Cause I'm gonna WIN!! Woo-hoo!

[69rs]

Another 69 Camaro? Can I do that? Yes, yes I can!

[camcojb]

Marquez Design would be willing to donate parts we make towards this project if it fits the theme of your build.

Jody

[MuscleRodz]

Y'all just hurry up and build my car! Cause I'm gonna WIN!! Woo-hoo!

You don't get anything for third.

Mike

[69rs]

Crap! Now you tell me!

[Jim Nilsen]

2 chances are still better than 1 just like buying 200 lottery tickets are more chances than buying 1 no matter how many tickets are sold. You have to play to win and the more plays you have the more chances you have to win and since they will only draw one ticket unlike the lottery where more than one person can have the winning ticket , right? Half of something is still better than all of nothing but that isn't how the raffle will be played.

Like I said I am not much of a gambler , didn't even drop a nickel in Vegas when I was there. I just like the idea of 2 chances for my $100 instead of one and maybe some lucky guy who can't pay $100 can get in on the action. I did say I wasn't much of a gambler didn't I?

2 chances in 10 sound better than 1 and 4 chances in twenty etc.,etc.

I always plan on losing when it comes to gambling money which is why I gamble with things like going into business and more tangible ways of having at least some control over the odds. There is a difference between odds and chances.

Cab driver in Vegas told me that it is usually the person that doesn't gamble that is the luckier to win , beating all of the odds.

Jim Nilsen

[TonyL]

Jim, you are still missing it. they are going to cap the dollar value of tickets sold. Lets say they only plan to sell 1000 dollars worth and thats it. They could sell em at 10 bucks each, or they could sell at 100 each. if they sold em at 100, your chances would be 1 out of 10. not 1 or even 10 out of a hundered.

In the lottery they let you buy as many as you want, no cap, and add the money you spent to the pot.

[moparguy]

The last time I purchased tickets for a raffle a big fraud was exposed, because the raffle winner turned out to be someone already predetermined to win...in other words alot of people had been scammed. The car that was supposed to be raffled off was a red 1991 Corvette ZR1.
At the time i had purchased $200 in tickets.


Who and what will keep this raffle fair???

[myclone]

Im in for $100 ticket no matter what kinda car it is (within reason) as long as its tastefully done. If its a car I really like (66 Chevelle..hint..hint) then I might raid the cookie jar and spring for two $100 tickets.

My only concerns would be resale clauses or something similar. Hypothetic situation: Say I won but the car being raffled was an 84 chevette that had gotten the pro touring make over and if I couldnt turn around and sell it due to some sort of resale clause then Id pass.

My .02

[Jim Nilsen]

I don't believe that we are having this raffle to beat the house or the odds. I know what you are thinking but does it apply here for what we are trying to accomplish?

We have 3000 people that are members and more who come here and not all of them have $100 for a ticket and if they did they probably can afford to build their own car rather nicely.

I believe this raffle is for the sponsors and the good of spreading Pro-Touring to others that don't quite get it yet. If 3000 people buy tickets more people will know about the sponsors, the lifestyle and maybe be lucky enough to get a $75,000 plus car. Without a large number of people the value of the car won't be able to be as much. 3000 x $25 is $75,000 if we go $50 it could be a $150,000 car.You can't win the Mule for less in my opinion and I would like the car to be as nice as the Mule. And if I was a sponsor I would want as many people as possible to know and enter. PHR has a rather large subscription rate yet advertisiers sometimes barley get enough response from an add to make it worthwhile.I know because I have been there. Doing advertising like this is as much of a risk or more for the time,money and effort involved and I would like to see it happen more than once.

I would rather spend less for a chance to win a higher dollar car than a lower dollar car and have a higher ticket price. Odds are I won't win it if there are only 10 people involved. Do you think a raffle of 10 people for $5,000 per chance for a $50,000 car would help the sponsors? or bring PT to a higher level just because the odds are better?

This isn't about being able to get an expensive PT car for free to me. If you all want to have it be that then sell raffle tickets for your own car and see if it will be worth it.

For those of you with a lot of money to buy in, buy a lot of tickets. You keep telling the odds will be the same so it shouldn't be a problem for you. For the guy that can't spend that or the guy that isn't much of a gambler, high dollar raffles are a deterent. I usually only buy raffle tickets that the money goes to a good cause. I personally don't like the gambling boats and casinos for the reason that poor people just spend money on hope instead of the things in life that are important.

I hope you understand that from a business point of view that the more coverage that this gets the better it is for the sponsors and that is why they would want to do it. That's why car dealers donate cars for charity raffles.

Lets not let greed get in the way just so someone who can afford to build the car anyway can get it for cheap and brag about it.Keeping the little guy out of it won't help the cause since we all know who the suppliers are and what Pro- Touring is all about.

I really want to encourage instead of discourage people to come here.

Just my thoughts and whether you agree or not probably won't matter to the winner anyway unless he wins with 1 $25 ticket and knows he beat the odds and POed some guy who bought $500 worth of tickets.

Jim Nilsen

[67Malibu]

I would be in for at least a couple $50 - or 1 $100 - depending on the car (Chevelle) I might buy more -

[4OfaKind]

Jim, you are still missing it. they are going to cap the dollar value of tickets sold. Lets say they only plan to sell 1000 dollars worth and thats it. They could sell em at 10 bucks each, or they could sell at 100 each. if they sold em at 100, your chances would be 1 out of 10. not 1 or even 10 out of a hundered.

In the lottery they let you buy as many as you want, no cap, and add the money you spent to the pot.

Actually Tony you may be the one who is not getting it. Using your example and Jim's theory, the odds are better for the guy who has 9 of the 10 or 19 of the 20 tickets as opposed to the guy who just bought one. Like the NBA lottery that is weighted for the biggest season loser. But also like that lottery the long shot could still win. (Hence the guy w/ only one ticket could still win ala the Orlando Magic). But odds are not important to the raffle only to those buying the tickets. I would be in for 1 - $100 or 2 - $50.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Actually Tony you may be the one who is not getting it. Using your example and Jim's theory, the odds are better for the guy who has 9 of the 10 or 19 of the 20 tickets as opposed to the guy who just bought one. Like the NBA lottery that is weighted for the biggest season loser. But also like that lottery the long shot could still win. (Hence the guy w/ only one ticket could still win ala the Orlando Magic). But odds are not important to the raffle only to those buying the tickets. I would be in for 1 - $100 or 2 - $50.

I understand what you're saying, but from a simple mathematical standpoint, the odds are the same. The probability of someone winning is exactly the same whether you hold 1 out of 10 tickets or 2 out of 20, or 10 out of 100, etc... It's all the same. This is what Tony was saying in regards to capping the ticket sales. If you sell $1000 worth of tickets, the law of probabilty holds true whether you sell the tickets for $100, and everyone buys 1, $50 and everyone buys 2, or even $25 and everyone buys 4. Your chances of winning in each of the 3 scenarios is still 1 in 10.

As long as the ticket sales are capped, and you spend the same amount of money on tickets, no matter the price, your odds of winning will not increase. Ie: You buy $200 worth of tickets-- 2 @ $100 or 3 @ $50. Chances in a $65,000 raffle are 325:1 both times.

[TonyL]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Or I'm just retarded.
/did real bad in math.

[MuscleRodz]

I see where Tony is coming from and I would like to have better odds as well. But go back to one of Frank's posts and 4th grade math and probablities. You want to find the amount that most people will pay and yield the most earnigs at the same time. Say you have a $10000 dollar raffle, and at $100 a pop, only 80 people purchase one. Then you have an identical raffle at $50 ea. and they sell out. Which was most profitable?

Mike

[JoshC]

Pick one and lets get started.

[YoungGun]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Or I'm just retarded.
/did real bad in math.

Your math works but just think about it this way...if you buy one 100 dollar ticker...you have whatever odds it is. 1-100. So if it were 50 dollar tickets and you buy 2, you have the same odds. Same odds for same amount of money, but more people can get involved when they buy just the single $50.

I am a college kid, I dont want to spend 100$, thats why I am saying 50$...we all got our reasons...I am not trying to pick on yours, its what most of us are thinking anyway!

Tim

[Jim Nilsen]

Since this won't happen without the sponsors. It would be best to find what each one wants to bring to the table. If we let Frank get the lowdown from them all and maybe a few more that want to show up and be included. Maybe one of those engine masters competition engines or something to put in by a magazine we could have one heck of a car for a pretty good price.

When Frank figures it out we could then negotiate enough tickets to get Larry what the site needs to keep going at the pace it is growing. Since this is a non profit site? we could then decide how many tickets would be sold to suggest the odds.

I still feel that if you are worried about the odds you are losing the spirit of the whole deal. Guys with more money get more chances and get better odds. I like the idea of $25 tickets and 4 chances for $100 over 1 chance for $100 but that is just me maybe. I just want more coverage and more people in it to keep it interesting to more of us and others that may watch. We could also let the sponsors decide since it is their donations that will be creating the car anyway and the more people the better for them and that is what will help build the next car after car if it works at all for them. It may take 5000 people in their eyes to make it worth their advertising dollarsto go far enough.

We need to talk it over a bunch more before we get it right so we can do it many times over.

Lastly if you can't afford to lose your money , don't play.This is supposed to be about fun building the ultimate PT car from our sponsors parts by the place that is supposed to know how to do it best. It is the ultimate reflection on who we are as a group. lets not blow it.


Jim Nilsen

[4OfaKind]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Ok Tony, I see your point. So now more questions arise.

What is the purpose of the raffle? Promote PT, make a profit, or just give a car away?

Like I said odds don't matter to the raffle just the ones buying the tickets. The purpose will dictate the odds. If you wish to make money you will sell more tickets than necessary = lower odds. If you wish to promote PT you will sell cheaper tickets = lower odds. If you just want to have a raffle for the sake of having a raffle you will sell higher priced tickets = better odds. The odds will take care of themselves, when will this thing start?

[Frank69]

Can I throw a word of caution out from the legal side of the house? A raffle, by legal definition is the same thing as a lottery, which is gambling. There is a formula that is used to determine if the raffle/lottery/contest is gambling, and therefore per se illegal. It is:

Prize + Chance + Consideration = Gambling

The prize is the car, the chance is the drawing and the consideration is the cost of the ticket.

In most states the only legal lottery is the state lottery (such as in CA or the multi-state Powerball). Some states have an exception for charities to hold raffles/lotteries. Generally, the charity must be a bona fide non-profit organization, be registered with the state, and is limited to the number of such raffles it may hold each year.

In order to make the raffle legal (if it is not for charitable purposes, and registered as such), you must take out one of the components, either prize, chance or consideration. Most commercial raffles/contests that you see in magazines take out the consideration aspect, which is the easiest. They do this by offering tickets for free (no consideration). Most of the time they put this in the disclaimer, and someone can send them a self-addressed, stamped envelope and receive 1 ticket for free. A person can do this as many times as they want, however.

I've gone on too long, shoot me an e-mail or a pm if you want to know further (and why I know this crap!)

Frank