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  1. #41
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    Local new guy PMs me on our local SCCA message board, starts asking about signing up to autocross his 1978 Malibu. One of the first questions is "what class will it be in?"

    From what it sounds like, it's got a motor upgrade, different wheels and tires and is missing some interior pieces...mainly a headliner. Guess what, rules dictate this puts him in CP most likely, with his bone stock suspension.

    He posts on the message board and immediately the veterans start telling him if he does "X" he can run in SM, or he can do "Y" and run in a stock class...yada yada yada... The guy just wants to try to autocross without learning and deciphering a 1,000 page rulebook and spending a bunch of money to match his car up with others (who won't really match up to it anyway once all said and done).

    A PERFECT example of where a STO class would work. Boom, here ya go, sign up in STO and show up. Run what you brung.

    I'm more and more convinced to push forward with this with our Region SAC.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  2. #42
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    Roanoke (FortWorth) Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
    Local new guy PMs me on our local SCCA message board, starts asking about signing up to autocross his 1978 Malibu. One of the first questions is "what class will it be in?"

    From what it sounds like, it's got a motor upgrade, different wheels and tires and is missing some interior pieces...mainly a headliner. Guess what, rules dictate this puts him in CP most likely, with his bone stock suspension.

    He posts on the message board and immediately the veterans start telling him if he does "X" he can run in SM, or he can do "Y" and run in a stock class...yada yada yada... The guy just wants to try to autocross without learning and deciphering a 1,000 page rulebook and spending a bunch of money to match his car up with others (who won't really match up to it anyway once all said and done).

    A PERFECT example of where a STO class would work. Boom, here ya go, sign up in STO and show up. Run what you brung.

    I'm more and more convinced to push forward with this with our Region SAC.
    Make that SCO... Street Car Open. Must be road legal with street tires. That way the unregistered race cars cant just slap street tires on it.
    Chris

    Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

  3. #43
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    Good point Chris... Noted...
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  4. #44
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    I think you have the right idea Dave ..You have the welcome matt out..If adjustments need to be made ,that can happen at a later time..There is plenty of ideas out there.This has been a pretty informative thread you started




    STO? IN San Diego we have SU Street Unlimited..No need to read a rulebook anything goes just no racing slicks and a street production car sometimes kit car.And also X runs .Just for timed laps with passengers.Sometimes what you have is XP class cars in SU.ASking for registration and insurance like GG would make it more street car friendly.




    Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave View Post
    We here in the Indy Region copied Goodguy's rules because they are nationally recognized. Our thinking behind it is that most people autocrossing their PT cars are already familiar with them, they don't have to make a single change to have a place to compete. The problem we encounter here with many potential participants (regardless of type of car) is that they read the rule book first and become tentative about joining in on the fun. While there are current classes that PT cars can be placed, they don't exactly fit and if they're reading the rules like so many, they pass on our events. So, give them rules they already know, make it easy, make it fun.

    As for what National is thinking, I haven't a clue. It's all talk right now.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
    In the last SCCA national event here, the Texas Match Tour, there was a ProTouring class referencing the American Streetcar Series rules. I see that becoming the standard for our cars in the SCCA.

    Does anyone have the American Streetcar Series Rules handy or available?
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  6. #46
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    Mar 2012
    Location
    Escondido CA
    Posts
    492
    Country Flag: United States
    Eligible Vehicle
    1. Must complete a Tech sheet and pass Tech inspection.
    2. Seat belts are required in all cars. Installation and the use of shoulder belts or an aftermarket harnesses is strongly recommended. For convertible, open top, and cars with Targa-tops/t-tops in the open position a factory 3 point or aftermarket 4 or 5 point harness is required (No lap only belts in open cars on road course) Attached hardware for belts must be in good condition, secure, tight. 3, 4 or 5 point harness must be installed and routed per manufacture specifications and are required for the all out class on the Road Course.
    3. Roll bars or roll cages are strongly recommended in all cars but mandatory on all convertibles for road course.The top of the roll structure may not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in the normal driving position. We approve, among others, the Tigercage by ridetech, roll cage kits offered by DSE and the Shelby bar offered by Gateway Classic Mustang. While we do understand there are many other options out there, we certainly know first hand the quality of these kits.
    4. All loose items, inside and outside the car, must be removed. Hand held items, such as but not limited to, cameras and cell phones are considered loose items. This to also include non-secured floor mats.
    5. Any cameras, if installed, must be securely mounted to handle driving maneuvers.
    6. Wheels must be safely affixed. All studs and lug nuts must be present/functional and tightened to manufacture specs.
    7. Tires must be in good condition with no cord or belts showing or cracks in the tread or sidewall. Each tire must have tread rating of 200 or more. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition.
    8. Throttle return action shall be safe and positive.
    9. No excessive fuel, oil, water, radiator fluid or brake fluid leaks should be observed.
    10. Brakes must have an adequate pedal, sufficient fluid in the master cylinder and no apparent hydraulic leaks under pressure. Vehicles must have a brake mechanism acting upon each wheel.
    11. Wheel bearings, shocks, steering, and suspension shall be in good operating condition.
    12. Exhaust must exit behind driver or to the side of the car and securely installed. Mufflers are required unless sound level at participating event does not require such.
    13. All batteries shall be attached securely to the frame or chassis structure.
    14. Roll bars may not be below the top of the drivers helmet in normal driving position.
    15. Fuel tank/cell must be located in a safe location and firmly secured/mounted and vented if required.
    16. Fire Extinguisher 2.5lb or more, must be attached and accessible. Road course only.
    17. All vehicles must display event numbers and must be readable by timing and scoring, course workers and grid workers.
    18. No passengers allowed on the road course unless passenger is driving instructor.
    19. It is the sole responsibility of the Competitor for their safe condition and operation of this vehicle in competition or on event premises. The inspector, inspection facility, ASCS, and/or its members or staff cannot and will not be held liable or responsible for any vehicle. I understand that problems, malfunctions, or damage
    may occur in connection with the operation of this vehicle prior to, during, or after the Track Event. I understand that any of the above items may be inspected at any time during the event. If any of the items are found unsatisfactory, the vehicle will not be allowed on track and the entry fees will be forfeited.
    20. These rules and conditions may be changed or altered per event by the Chief operating Officer of the event and are subject to the competitor’s responsibility to know all the rules and regulations.

    1973 Corvette Factory Primer Car
    1969 Barracuda Convertible
    1967 Plymouth Valiant

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Oakdale, Ca.
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    A dedicated SCCA Truck class would be nice......


    George Dias
    1973 Camaro
    2002 SVT Lightning
    2003 Z06 Corvette

    2015 Truckin Throwdown Champion http://www.trucktrend.com/events/tru...by-ebc-brakes/

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    709
    Although I'm sure I've missed some exceptions to the rules that get me stuck in CP, the 100 pounds of tubing (6-point rollbar, SFCs, outriggers to rockers), relocated control arms (all four are now tubular as well), electric power/rack and pinion steering, and roller cam motor usually keep me out of some theoretically more horsepower-friendly classes. But again, I'm not likely to be chasing points (and CP cars are just awesome, even if I can't compete)...

    Quote Originally Posted by soloracerSD View Post
    rustomatic. Have you tried SCCA Street Modified..Even though SM are rated as a faster class to CP.They still have interior with just a few frame supports additions being allow.So they aren't tubeframe race cars like CP.But then to be competitive in any class above street touring classes you need to spend a few thousand.. The Same if it was a Pro-Touring class. E-Street Prepared is a good class with allowed mods.but not a wallet buster.I race in C-Street Prepared.have for 20 years .Sometimes it's just a couple mod changes to get you in ESP.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    709
    I like the street tire concept--our overlying idea with the hotrod/PT concept always should stay rooted in the street application. If we all show up with 13-inch slicks, we've kind of lost the plot, haven't we? I don't intend to buy a trailer . . . any time soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave View Post
    We're using ESP (.849) X .90 for a PAX but seriously, who cares about PAX? My opinion is PAX has it's place but in most situations all it serves is as an ego-stroke mechanism. In class competition, it makes no difference. It works OK as an index system for events where there's inter-class competition.

    Around here the R-comp to street tire ratio is reversed. The vast majority of our competitors are on street tires. IMO if PT classes occur in SCCA I think it would be wise to keep them on the same type of street tires the other bodies require.

  10. #50
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    Mar 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustomatic View Post
    I like the street tire concept--our overlying idea with the hotrod/PT concept always should stay rooted in the street application. If we all show up with 13-inch slicks, we've kind of lost the plot, haven't we? I don't intend to buy a trailer . . . any time soon...
    I agree.... I'm frequently told to bolt on some slicks at SCCA events but prefer to drive up in my 200 TW street tires.


    George Dias
    1973 Camaro
    2002 SVT Lightning
    2003 Z06 Corvette

    2015 Truckin Throwdown Champion http://www.trucktrend.com/events/tru...by-ebc-brakes/

  11. #51
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    Jul 2012
    Location
    San Diego
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    Looks like the back of our entry card tech list.Instead of saying throttle return being safe and positive we say 2 return springs in case one breaks...Tom was a witness to a crazy throttle stick accident two events ago.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tomswheels View Post
    Eligible Vehicle
    1. Must complete a Tech sheet and pass Tech inspection.
    2. Seat belts are required in all cars. Installation and the use of shoulder belts or an aftermarket harnesses is strongly recommended. For convertible, open top, and cars with Targa-tops/t-tops in the open position a factory 3 point or aftermarket 4 or 5 point harness is required (No lap only belts in open cars on road course) Attached hardware for belts must be in good condition, secure, tight. 3, 4 or 5 point harness must be installed and routed per manufacture specifications and are required for the all out class on the Road Course.
    3. Roll bars or roll cages are strongly recommended in all cars but mandatory on all convertibles for road course.The top of the roll structure may not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in the normal driving position. We approve, among others, the Tigercage by ridetech, roll cage kits offered by DSE and the Shelby bar offered by Gateway Classic Mustang. While we do understand there are many other options out there, we certainly know first hand the quality of these kits.
    4. All loose items, inside and outside the car, must be removed. Hand held items, such as but not limited to, cameras and cell phones are considered loose items. This to also include non-secured floor mats.
    5. Any cameras, if installed, must be securely mounted to handle driving maneuvers.
    6. Wheels must be safely affixed. All studs and lug nuts must be present/functional and tightened to manufacture specs.
    7. Tires must be in good condition with no cord or belts showing or cracks in the tread or sidewall. Each tire must have tread rating of 200 or more. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition.
    8. Throttle return action shall be safe and positive.
    9. No excessive fuel, oil, water, radiator fluid or brake fluid leaks should be observed.
    10. Brakes must have an adequate pedal, sufficient fluid in the master cylinder and no apparent hydraulic leaks under pressure. Vehicles must have a brake mechanism acting upon each wheel.
    11. Wheel bearings, shocks, steering, and suspension shall be in good operating condition.
    12. Exhaust must exit behind driver or to the side of the car and securely installed. Mufflers are required unless sound level at participating event does not require such.
    13. All batteries shall be attached securely to the frame or chassis structure.
    14. Roll bars may not be below the top of the drivers helmet in normal driving position.
    15. Fuel tank/cell must be located in a safe location and firmly secured/mounted and vented if required.
    16. Fire Extinguisher 2.5lb or more, must be attached and accessible. Road course only.
    17. All vehicles must display event numbers and must be readable by timing and scoring, course workers and grid workers.
    18. No passengers allowed on the road course unless passenger is driving instructor.
    19. It is the sole responsibility of the Competitor for their safe condition and operation of this vehicle in competition or on event premises. The inspector, inspection facility, ASCS, and/or its members or staff cannot and will not be held liable or responsible for any vehicle. I understand that problems, malfunctions, or damage
    may occur in connection with the operation of this vehicle prior to, during, or after the Track Event. I understand that any of the above items may be inspected at any time during the event. If any of the items are found unsatisfactory, the vehicle will not be allowed on track and the entry fees will be forfeited.
    20. These rules and conditions may be changed or altered per event by the Chief operating Officer of the event and are subject to the competitor’s responsibility to know all the rules and regulations.


  12. #52
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    Jul 2012
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    Many of us just bring our DOT race tires with us.Change them at the event with a trolley jack.Takes me 10 minutes and it's good exercise..first thing in the morning... LOL even minie bumber racks or trailors to carry them..IT's not for everyone though.. It burns off caloories ah TomWheels.



    Quote Originally Posted by rustomatic View Post
    I like the street tire concept--our overlying idea with the hotrod/PT concept always should stay rooted in the street application. If we all show up with 13-inch slicks, we've kind of lost the plot, haven't we? I don't intend to buy a trailer . . . any time soon...

  13. #53
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    I've got my proposal in hand and have time allotted at our Solo Advisory Committee meeting this coming Tuesday. With the Solo Advisory Chair's help we took Dave's ruleset above and changed just a few things to line it up more clearly with the SCCA rulebook (mainly safety items). Our plan is to institute the new PT classes as provisionary for the rest of 2013 and make them trophy eligible in 2014.

    One of the things they want me to speak of during my time is how this might help bring more participants to our events. I did some looking into Good Guys events last night and found out the GGs event usually held at Kansas Speedway Labor Day weekend has been cancelled. I had planned on saying that I'd attend that event and speak with as many car owners as could there telling them about the new PT classes with our SCCA club, but that ain't happening now. I see this as both bad and good. Bad as it takes away an opportunity for me to see a lot of these owners in one place, but good because it drives home the point of driver's that would typically autocross at this event, not being able to now as it's gone away.

    Anyway, my plan if this comes to fruition is to decal my car up and hit a few cruise ins around the area with brochures and pamphlets showing the schedule and ruleset of the new class. Hopefully this will garner up some interest from the PT crowd. Our cruise in's are pretty well attended, by both regular car owners and shops owners that drive their personal cars out to them as promotional means.

    Anyway, wish me luck... Our SAC meeting is next Tuesday.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  14. #54
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    May 2011
    Location
    Northwest, MO
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    Good luck Lance. I don't know if I will make any more KCRSCCA events this year, but it would be fun to see some more pro touring cars running.
    Tyler Gibson

    There's nothing like building up an old automobile from scratch and wiping out one of these Detroit machines... That'll give you a set of emotions that will stay with you... Know what I mean? Those satisfactions are permanent...

  15. #55
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    Thanks Tyler, I think it will be fun to have all of us that are running, run together in one class.

    The Miata and Mini guys all get to bench race and talk trash to each other before heats, why can we?
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  16. #56
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    The Solo Advisory Committee passed my proposal last night! There was some pretty good discussion, one sort of hold out that is the kind that prefers the SCCA way of classing cars to the minute detail but overall the discussion was good and everyone is on board.

    One thing we are still trying to figure out is the best way to describe the cars allowed to run in the class. In theory, we are all on the same page and understand that it is a playground for full size American made cars to compete in, but putting that into official language has a few issues. For instance, does "Production car Made in the Americas" include a new Toyota Camry or exclude a new Dodge Challenger?

    We discussed specifying just Ford, GM, and Chrysler cars ...but what about the guy that wants to run an old Willy's truck or an AMC Javelin? Or an International Scout?

    I'm looking for ideas on how to properly word this part of rule so we can get the supplement put into place before registration for our Sept event is set up, any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Lance
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  17. #57
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    May 2011
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    Northwest, MO
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    Is modifying existing SCCA rules fair game since you are creating a regional SCCA class? If so, this could be a start:

    Cars running the Pro Touring Category must have been series produced by a United States based manufacturer with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through a United States based manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the United States. Car models not specifically listed in any Pro Touring Category must have been produced by a United States based manufacturer, and must meet the above requirements and have been sold by a United States based manufacturer through normal United States dealerships, in quantities of at least 1,000 in a 12-month period in order to be eligible for the Pro Touring Category.
    Tyler Gibson

    There's nothing like building up an old automobile from scratch and wiping out one of these Detroit machines... That'll give you a set of emotions that will stay with you... Know what I mean? Those satisfactions are permanent...

  18. #58
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    Sep 2007
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    Tennessee
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    Last month the local scca had me in the stx class .827 pax. This month they moved me up to ssm class .881 pax. The man making the call is a national champ, that sits on the national solo 2 board that makes the rules, Richard Holden. They are looking for a fair way to incorporate us. It just isn't that easy. I've got the motor swap, DSE front sub and rear 4 link, full interior minus back seat, and street tires. Like grabber said, I just look at the overall raw time, although the pax was pretty friendly last month. I'm usually the only PT car out there, and I'm there just for seat time anyway really.
    _______________
    Karl

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoX_a_Truck? View Post
    Is modifying existing SCCA rules fair game since you are creating a regional SCCA class? If so, this could be a start:

    Cars running the Pro Touring Category must have been series produced by a United States based manufacturer with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through a United States based manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the United States. Car models not specifically listed in any Pro Touring Category must have been produced by a United States based manufacturer, and must meet the above requirements and have been sold by a United States based manufacturer through normal United States dealerships, in quantities of at least 1,000 in a 12-month period in order to be eligible for the Pro Touring Category.

    Because this is a new supplement for just our Region, we can create it to be anything we want.

    I like where you are going with the above. The only question I have is how does that description relate to the 2012 Dodge Challenger that is currently running with us? Would Dodge still be considered a "United States Based" manufacturer and dealership with their new ownership?

    I would like the class to include all larger typically American made muscle cars without exclusions, but not leave the door open for a 4 door Porsche Caymen or a Toyota Camry to sneak in. I believe the new Camaro, new Challenger, possibly even the new Mustangs might enjoy running in this class instead of F Stock or SM where they typically get stuck now. Heck we had an almost completely factory 2012 Mustang out with a aftermarket supercharger on it couple of events ago and they stuck him in XP.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunnjun View Post
    Last month the local scca had me in the stx class .827 pax. This month they moved me up to ssm class .881 pax. The man making the call is a national champ, that sits on the national solo 2 board that makes the rules, Richard Holden. They are looking for a fair way to incorporate us. It just isn't that easy. I've got the motor swap, DSE front sub and rear 4 link, full interior minus back seat, and street tires. Like grabber said, I just look at the overall raw time, although the pax was pretty friendly last month. I'm usually the only PT car out there, and I'm there just for seat time anyway really.
    I think it's almost impossible to do anything with the PAX to make this class (or our cars in general) competitive with the typical SCCA autocross cars. There are just way too many variables. We talked about using AM's PAX for this new class but didn't really spend a lot of time on it as it's basically a non-issue for everyone.

    The one committee member that was kind of against the motion kept trying to call the idea "XP on street tires" and that wasn't really the idea either in my eyes. I explained that it needed to be basically a place for Street Legal American made larger cars to run against each other. He voted for the idea anyway, but it just wasn't his bag. He prefers the classic rules setup where one can bend and manipulate the existing rules to try to get the best advantage in any one certain class to compete on PAX against everyone, and that's fine...that's what the sport was built on in their eyes. I'm not trying to change that, or participate in that arena.

    This class just gives the rest of us that don't want to or can't play in that arena...also come out and play on event days against ourselves basically.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

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