SCCA is considering adding Pro Touring classes.

[Tomswheels]

I think what Lance said above is just the thing for most of us: Just do it for fun and to test your stuff in a relatively safe place. What happens when I show up at an autocross (most likely SCCA, but plan for AAS), which I intend to do more in the future, is this: I get put in CP as a result of a few wacky (or not-so-wacky) mods on my car. As many here know, CP is full of full-race cars that cost as much as a house; I will never compete with these people, even if they're only 10 seconds faster. That ten seconds is pretty far from my car and autocross skills; I really don't care, however, because it's fun to see these cars and drool over them between runs...

Most people like to feel that they are competing, but not a lot of guys with high-dollar hotrods are dying to thrash their cars on the weekends; most people with supercars are the same way. With the challenges of increased administration and some necessary marketing to make it worth while, the changes might not be worth the effort at SCCA events, which are usually pretty diverse, car-wise, anyway. This is why it's good to have other organizations and events...

I believe this is exactly why we need a PT class. Some PT guys get discouraged getting classed with full race cars. The rules you have for Indy seem pretty good, just dont think you need the same classes as Good Guys.

[soloracerSD]

rustomatic. Have you tried SCCA Street Modified..Even though SM are rated as a faster class to CP.They still have interior with just a few frame supports additions being allow.So they aren't tubeframe race cars like CP.But then to be competitive in any class above street touring classes you need to spend a few thousand.. The Same if it was a Pro-Touring class. E-Street Prepared is a good class with allowed mods.but not a wallet buster.I race in C-Street Prepared.have for 20 years .Sometimes it's just a couple mod changes to get you in ESP.

I think what Lance said above is just the thing for most of us: Just do it for fun and to test your stuff in a relatively safe place. What happens when I show up at an autocross (most likely SCCA, but plan for AAS), which I intend to do more in the future, is this: I get put in CP as a result of a few wacky (or not-so-wacky) mods on my car. As many here know, CP is full of full-race cars that cost as much as a house; I will never compete with these people, even if they're only 10 seconds faster. That ten seconds is pretty far from my car and autocross skills; I really don't care, however, because it's fun to see these cars and drool over them between runs...

Most people like to feel that they are competing, but not a lot of guys with high-dollar hotrods are dying to thrash their cars on the weekends; most people with supercars are the same way. With the challenges of increased administration and some necessary marketing to make it worth while, the changes might not be worth the effort at SCCA events, which are usually pretty diverse, car-wise, anyway. This is why it's good to have other organizations and events...

[rustomatic]

Although I'm sure I've missed some exceptions to the rules that get me stuck in CP, the 100 pounds of tubing (6-point rollbar, SFCs, outriggers to rockers), relocated control arms (all four are now tubular as well), electric power/rack and pinion steering, and roller cam motor usually keep me out of some theoretically more horsepower-friendly classes. But again, I'm not likely to be chasing points (and CP cars are just awesome, even if I can't compete)...

rustomatic. Have you tried SCCA Street Modified..Even though SM are rated as a faster class to CP.They still have interior with just a few frame supports additions being allow.So they aren't tubeframe race cars like CP.But then to be competitive in any class above street touring classes you need to spend a few thousand.. The Same if it was a Pro-Touring class. E-Street Prepared is a good class with allowed mods.but not a wallet buster.I race in C-Street Prepared.have for 20 years .Sometimes it's just a couple mod changes to get you in ESP.

[High Plains Mopars]

and some necessary marketing to make it worth while,

I think this is key. Hard core car guys know what SCCA is but I'd venture a guess to say a lot may think it is the exclusive playground of sports cars and not muscle cars. You want to bring new people into it, get the word out in front of the new people.

[GrabberGT]

Im the same way. Just show up and take whatever class they want to put me in. Its not like Im after a title or prize money. I do however look over the results sheet afterwards to see how I compare to those cars that ours are meant to emulate. That would be the late model Muscle Cars. Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers... As long as it had a full interior and street tires, its fair game for me. Bottom line is that I dont need the SCCA or some other sanctioning body to tell me who my competition is. I already know. Same thing happens when I show up to good guys. You know a race car/truck when you see one.

[soloracerSD]

Agree 100%you will have fun comparing laps times after each event.In time you will close the gap on some of the drivers.


One of the first things a Vintage Muscle Autocrosser does is lower the Upper front A -arm .Shelby drop or Gulstran,(spelling?).that would put you in prepared class like CP..Knowing that I got a loose agreement with the San Diego region to allow vintage muscle cars to run SM with the drops.Even ESP now.It's a bummer to be put in a Prepared CP when the drop is the only reason on a vintage Muscle car..
The SCCA does give allowances to some cars if they see a demand for them to be raced.

I've talk with Doug Gill SCCA Solo2 Cometition manager,several times on Vintage Muscle cars and the Shelby drops.He told me a allowance for Upper Control arm drops for vintage muscle in SMmaybe ESP could be voted on if interest is shown.He takes phone calls.If you have a understanding of the rule book it helps.
If you have any Questions



BTW if you have a Mustang Shelby GT350 65-66 you are legal in F-Stock with the control arm drops.or have a clone of one.Perfect example of a Vintage Mucle car clone and run in a competitive SCCA autocross class. Search here" 67 Camaro SCCA Build",Jason Rodes he is a success full SCCA autocross car builder

Im the same way. Just show up and take whatever class they want to put me in. Its not like Im after a title or prize money. I do however look over the results sheet afterwards to see how I compare to those cars that ours are meant to emulate. That would be the late model Muscle Cars. Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers... As long as it had a full interior and street tires, its fair game for me. Bottom line is that I dont need the SCCA or some other sanctioning body to tell me who my competition is. I already know. Same thing happens when I show up to good guys. You know a race car/truck when you see one.

[IndyDave]

We here in the Indy Region copied Goodguy's rules because they are nationally recognized. Our thinking behind it is that most people autocrossing their PT cars are already familiar with them, they don't have to make a single change to have a place to compete. The problem we encounter here with many potential participants (regardless of type of car) is that they read the rule book first and become tentative about joining in on the fun. While there are current classes that PT cars can be placed, they don't exactly fit and if they're reading the rules like so many, they pass on our events. So, give them rules they already know, make it easy, make it fun.

As for what National is thinking, I haven't a clue. It's all talk right now.

[SSLance]

Local new guy PMs me on our local SCCA message board, starts asking about signing up to autocross his 1978 Malibu. One of the first questions is "what class will it be in?"

From what it sounds like, it's got a motor upgrade, different wheels and tires and is missing some interior pieces...mainly a headliner. Guess what, rules dictate this puts him in CP most likely, with his bone stock suspension.

He posts on the message board and immediately the veterans start telling him if he does "X" he can run in SM, or he can do "Y" and run in a stock class...yada yada yada... The guy just wants to try to autocross without learning and deciphering a 1,000 page rulebook and spending a bunch of money to match his car up with others (who won't really match up to it anyway once all said and done).

A PERFECT example of where a STO class would work. Boom, here ya go, sign up in STO and show up. Run what you brung.

I'm more and more convinced to push forward with this with our Region SAC.

[GrabberGT]

Local new guy PMs me on our local SCCA message board, starts asking about signing up to autocross his 1978 Malibu. One of the first questions is "what class will it be in?"

From what it sounds like, it's got a motor upgrade, different wheels and tires and is missing some interior pieces...mainly a headliner. Guess what, rules dictate this puts him in CP most likely, with his bone stock suspension.

He posts on the message board and immediately the veterans start telling him if he does "X" he can run in SM, or he can do "Y" and run in a stock class...yada yada yada... The guy just wants to try to autocross without learning and deciphering a 1,000 page rulebook and spending a bunch of money to match his car up with others (who won't really match up to it anyway once all said and done).

A PERFECT example of where a STO class would work. Boom, here ya go, sign up in STO and show up. Run what you brung.

I'm more and more convinced to push forward with this with our Region SAC.

Make that SCO... Street Car Open. Must be road legal with street tires. That way the unregistered race cars cant just slap street tires on it.

[soloracerSD]

I think you have the right idea Dave ..You have the welcome matt out..If adjustments need to be made ,that can happen at a later time..There is plenty of ideas out there.This has been a pretty informative thread you started




STO? IN San Diego we have SU Street Unlimited..No need to read a rulebook anything goes just no racing slicks and a street production car sometimes kit car.And also X runs .Just for timed laps with passengers.Sometimes what you have is XP class cars in SU.ASking for registration and insurance like GG would make it more street car friendly.

We here in the Indy Region copied Goodguy's rules because they are nationally recognized. Our thinking behind it is that most people autocrossing their PT cars are already familiar with them, they don't have to make a single change to have a place to compete. The problem we encounter here with many potential participants (regardless of type of car) is that they read the rule book first and become tentative about joining in on the fun. While there are current classes that PT cars can be placed, they don't exactly fit and if they're reading the rules like so many, they pass on our events. So, give them rules they already know, make it easy, make it fun.

As for what National is thinking, I haven't a clue. It's all talk right now.

[SSLance]

Good point Chris... Noted...

[Tomswheels]

Eligible Vehicle
1. Must complete a Tech sheet and pass Tech inspection.
2. Seat belts are required in all cars. Installation and the use of shoulder belts or an aftermarket harnesses is strongly recommended. For convertible, open top, and cars with Targa-tops/t-tops in the open position a factory 3 point or aftermarket 4 or 5 point harness is required (No lap only belts in open cars on road course) Attached hardware for belts must be in good condition, secure, tight. 3, 4 or 5 point harness must be installed and routed per manufacture specifications and are required for the all out class on the Road Course.
3. Roll bars or roll cages are strongly recommended in all cars but mandatory on all convertibles for road course.The top of the roll structure may not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in the normal driving position. We approve, among others, the Tigercage by ridetech, roll cage kits offered by DSE and the Shelby bar offered by Gateway Classic Mustang. While we do understand there are many other options out there, we certainly know first hand the quality of these kits.
4. All loose items, inside and outside the car, must be removed. Hand held items, such as but not limited to, cameras and cell phones are considered loose items. This to also include non-secured floor mats.
5. Any cameras, if installed, must be securely mounted to handle driving maneuvers.
6. Wheels must be safely affixed. All studs and lug nuts must be present/functional and tightened to manufacture specs.
7. Tires must be in good condition with no cord or belts showing or cracks in the tread or sidewall. Each tire must have tread rating of 200 or more. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition.
8. Throttle return action shall be safe and positive.
9. No excessive fuel, oil, water, radiator fluid or brake fluid leaks should be observed.
10. Brakes must have an adequate pedal, sufficient fluid in the master cylinder and no apparent hydraulic leaks under pressure. Vehicles must have a brake mechanism acting upon each wheel.
11. Wheel bearings, shocks, steering, and suspension shall be in good operating condition.
12. Exhaust must exit behind driver or to the side of the car and securely installed. Mufflers are required unless sound level at participating event does not require such.
13. All batteries shall be attached securely to the frame or chassis structure.
14. Roll bars may not be below the top of the drivers helmet in normal driving position.
15. Fuel tank/cell must be located in a safe location and firmly secured/mounted and vented if required.
16. Fire Extinguisher 2.5lb or more, must be attached and accessible. Road course only.
17. All vehicles must display event numbers and must be readable by timing and scoring, course workers and grid workers.
18. No passengers allowed on the road course unless passenger is driving instructor.
19. It is the sole responsibility of the Competitor for their safe condition and operation of this vehicle in competition or on event premises. The inspector, inspection facility, ASCS, and/or its members or staff cannot and will not be held liable or responsible for any vehicle. I understand that problems, malfunctions, or damage
may occur in connection with the operation of this vehicle prior to, during, or after the Track Event. I understand that any of the above items may be inspected at any time during the event. If any of the items are found unsatisfactory, the vehicle will not be allowed on track and the entry fees will be forfeited.
20. These rules and conditions may be changed or altered per event by the Chief operating Officer of the event and are subject to the competitor’s responsibility to know all the rules and regulations.

[soloracerSD]

Looks like the back of our entry card tech list.Instead of saying throttle return being safe and positive we say 2 return springs in case one breaks...Tom was a witness to a crazy throttle stick accident two events ago.

Eligible Vehicle
1. Must complete a Tech sheet and pass Tech inspection.
2. Seat belts are required in all cars. Installation and the use of shoulder belts or an aftermarket harnesses is strongly recommended. For convertible, open top, and cars with Targa-tops/t-tops in the open position a factory 3 point or aftermarket 4 or 5 point harness is required (No lap only belts in open cars on road course) Attached hardware for belts must be in good condition, secure, tight. 3, 4 or 5 point harness must be installed and routed per manufacture specifications and are required for the all out class on the Road Course.
3. Roll bars or roll cages are strongly recommended in all cars but mandatory on all convertibles for road course.The top of the roll structure may not be below the top of the driver’s helmet when the driver is in the normal driving position. We approve, among others, the Tigercage by ridetech, roll cage kits offered by DSE and the Shelby bar offered by Gateway Classic Mustang. While we do understand there are many other options out there, we certainly know first hand the quality of these kits.
4. All loose items, inside and outside the car, must be removed. Hand held items, such as but not limited to, cameras and cell phones are considered loose items. This to also include non-secured floor mats.
5. Any cameras, if installed, must be securely mounted to handle driving maneuvers.
6. Wheels must be safely affixed. All studs and lug nuts must be present/functional and tightened to manufacture specs.
7. Tires must be in good condition with no cord or belts showing or cracks in the tread or sidewall. Each tire must have tread rating of 200 or more. Tires may not have cord visible at any time during competition.
8. Throttle return action shall be safe and positive.
9. No excessive fuel, oil, water, radiator fluid or brake fluid leaks should be observed.
10. Brakes must have an adequate pedal, sufficient fluid in the master cylinder and no apparent hydraulic leaks under pressure. Vehicles must have a brake mechanism acting upon each wheel.
11. Wheel bearings, shocks, steering, and suspension shall be in good operating condition.
12. Exhaust must exit behind driver or to the side of the car and securely installed. Mufflers are required unless sound level at participating event does not require such.
13. All batteries shall be attached securely to the frame or chassis structure.
14. Roll bars may not be below the top of the drivers helmet in normal driving position.
15. Fuel tank/cell must be located in a safe location and firmly secured/mounted and vented if required.
16. Fire Extinguisher 2.5lb or more, must be attached and accessible. Road course only.
17. All vehicles must display event numbers and must be readable by timing and scoring, course workers and grid workers.
18. No passengers allowed on the road course unless passenger is driving instructor.
19. It is the sole responsibility of the Competitor for their safe condition and operation of this vehicle in competition or on event premises. The inspector, inspection facility, ASCS, and/or its members or staff cannot and will not be held liable or responsible for any vehicle. I understand that problems, malfunctions, or damage
may occur in connection with the operation of this vehicle prior to, during, or after the Track Event. I understand that any of the above items may be inspected at any time during the event. If any of the items are found unsatisfactory, the vehicle will not be allowed on track and the entry fees will be forfeited.
20. These rules and conditions may be changed or altered per event by the Chief operating Officer of the event and are subject to the competitor’s responsibility to know all the rules and regulations.

[struck by Lightning]

A dedicated SCCA Truck class would be nice......

[SSLance]

I've got my proposal in hand and have time allotted at our Solo Advisory Committee meeting this coming Tuesday. With the Solo Advisory Chair's help we took Dave's ruleset above and changed just a few things to line it up more clearly with the SCCA rulebook (mainly safety items). Our plan is to institute the new PT classes as provisionary for the rest of 2013 and make them trophy eligible in 2014.

One of the things they want me to speak of during my time is how this might help bring more participants to our events. I did some looking into Good Guys events last night and found out the GGs event usually held at Kansas Speedway Labor Day weekend has been cancelled. I had planned on saying that I'd attend that event and speak with as many car owners as could there telling them about the new PT classes with our SCCA club, but that ain't happening now. I see this as both bad and good. Bad as it takes away an opportunity for me to see a lot of these owners in one place, but good because it drives home the point of driver's that would typically autocross at this event, not being able to now as it's gone away.

Anyway, my plan if this comes to fruition is to decal my car up and hit a few cruise ins around the area with brochures and pamphlets showing the schedule and ruleset of the new class. Hopefully this will garner up some interest from the PT crowd. Our cruise in's are pretty well attended, by both regular car owners and shops owners that drive their personal cars out to them as promotional means.

Anyway, wish me luck... Our SAC meeting is next Tuesday.

[AutoX_a_Truck?]

Good luck Lance. I don't know if I will make any more KCRSCCA events this year, but it would be fun to see some more pro touring cars running.

[SSLance]

Thanks Tyler, I think it will be fun to have all of us that are running, run together in one class.

The Miata and Mini guys all get to bench race and talk trash to each other before heats, why can we?

[SSLance]

The Solo Advisory Committee passed my proposal last night! There was some pretty good discussion, one sort of hold out that is the kind that prefers the SCCA way of classing cars to the minute detail but overall the discussion was good and everyone is on board.

One thing we are still trying to figure out is the best way to describe the cars allowed to run in the class. In theory, we are all on the same page and understand that it is a playground for full size American made cars to compete in, but putting that into official language has a few issues. For instance, does "Production car Made in the Americas" include a new Toyota Camry or exclude a new Dodge Challenger?

We discussed specifying just Ford, GM, and Chrysler cars ...but what about the guy that wants to run an old Willy's truck or an AMC Javelin? Or an International Scout?

I'm looking for ideas on how to properly word this part of rule so we can get the supplement put into place before registration for our Sept event is set up, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Lance

[AutoX_a_Truck?]

Is modifying existing SCCA rules fair game since you are creating a regional SCCA class? If so, this could be a start:

Cars running the Pro Touring Category must have been series produced by a United States based manufacturer with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through a United States based manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the United States. Car models not specifically listed in any Pro Touring Category must have been produced by a United States based manufacturer, and must meet the above requirements and have been sold by a United States based manufacturer through normal United States dealerships, in quantities of at least 1,000 in a 12-month period in order to be eligible for the Pro Touring Category.

[SSLance]

Is modifying existing SCCA rules fair game since you are creating a regional SCCA class? If so, this could be a start:

Cars running the Pro Touring Category must have been series produced by a United States based manufacturer with normal road touring equipment, capable of being licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold and delivered through a United States based manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the United States. Car models not specifically listed in any Pro Touring Category must have been produced by a United States based manufacturer, and must meet the above requirements and have been sold by a United States based manufacturer through normal United States dealerships, in quantities of at least 1,000 in a 12-month period in order to be eligible for the Pro Touring Category.

Because this is a new supplement for just our Region, we can create it to be anything we want.

I like where you are going with the above. The only question I have is how does that description relate to the 2012 Dodge Challenger that is currently running with us? Would Dodge still be considered a "United States Based" manufacturer and dealership with their new ownership?

I would like the class to include all larger typically American made muscle cars without exclusions, but not leave the door open for a 4 door Porsche Caymen or a Toyota Camry to sneak in. I believe the new Camaro, new Challenger, possibly even the new Mustangs might enjoy running in this class instead of F Stock or SM where they typically get stuck now. Heck we had an almost completely factory 2012 Mustang out with a aftermarket supercharger on it couple of events ago and they stuck him in XP.