Anyone have Pinto/Mustang II experience???

[TurboBu]

So I'm about ready to start modifying my recently purchased 71,855 mile one owner grandma 1976 Pinto wagon.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/06/DBF9445CDCF8494C8C53CB47C4F4333A75870000-1.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/TurboBu/media/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/Grannys%20Pinto%20Wagon/DBF9445C-DCF8-494C-8C53-CB47C4F4333A-7587-00000719C863B152_zpsdcdfc8a1.jpg.html)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/06/9B239E1A1E0948C6877F76F143F1297375870000-1.jpg (http://s574.photobucket.com/user/TurboBu/media/Shanes%20TurboBu%20Projects/Grannys%20Pinto%20Wagon/9B239E1A-1E09-48C6-877F-76F143F12973-7587-0000071A4A399F77_zps2036aca8.jpg.html)
I'm looking for budget suspension upgrade suggestions. The front end, shocks, sway bars, steering etc... is a little tired. I want to lower it a couple of inches and go with 17 or 18" black center/polished lip wheels. Engine/trans I really want a 3.5 Ecoboost from a late model truck with a world class t-5 Ford Motorsports guys tell me this is reasonable.

Anyhow, back to suspension. I want to put a budget suspension package together and get some wheels on her. I'm thinking some expensive tubular a-arms such as these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Mustang-2-II-Tubular-Control-Arms-Upper-And-Lower-Coil-Springs-Black-Coated-/141001282969?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20d454d599&vxp=mtr eliminating the strut rods, a shorter heavier front spring and or dropped spindles (do these effect bump steer?) just want to do lowering blocks and shocks in the rear for now. Also thinking about using 11" Granda rotors and GM calipers in the front for a budget brake upgrade and to switch to 5 on 4.5" pattern. Not sure on the rear end yet either. I have an Explorer disk brake 3.73 posi rear setting at the shop but if I shorten the long side and use 2 short side axles the pinion will still be offset 2" or so and the rear will be slightly shorter than the stock pinto. I can get an 8" out of a Maverick for $50 but gears and posi/lockers are big $$$ compared to a 9" or used 8.8 parts.

Any help in the right or away from the wrong direction is much appreciated.

[RobNoLimit]

Stay with the OE arms. The stock sheetmetal crossmember can't take the load of the lower arm by it self. Go for urethane bushings in the stock arms. Adjustable strut rod kits are available, they can be used to adjust the caster. If your going a bit farther, look into some of the oval track suppliers for a bearing conversion (instead of bushing) in the lower A-arm - this eliminates the bushing bind when adding caster. No limit has 'Smart Spindles', 2" drop with forged in caliper mounts for GM calipers, 11" rotors. Try the 78 must II V8 spring, cut 3/4 coil. look to Addco for sway bars. KYB or Bilstien shocks.

[TurboBu]

Thanks Rob I love your projects. What welding/gusseting would you recommend? no amount of fabrication is out of my skill level, just new to the PT thing and not familiar with the short coming of the stock Mustang II pinto suspension. This is just a simple budget driver project, not an all out track effort. I have a 29 Model A sedan that I intend to go NUTS with.

[RobNoLimit]

We raced these for 20+ yrs (sad to say) from El-Mirage and Bonneville to Sock Pony, Mod Pony and I-4 mods (a small version of an IMCA modified). Racing in a 'stock' class teaches you the most about how to work with the OEM platform. No real bracing/gusseting, but one thing will make a big difference. - Weld it up. I mean ALL of it. The OE platform is only spot welded together. Before you do a motor swap, pull the interior, put it on stands nice and level, and start cleaning. - then, start welding. The metal is thin and doesn't fit very well, so use a small hammer to close the gaps. The floor, firewall, A and B pillars, cowl, front and rear fenderwells, spring mounts, front crossmember........ all of it. Back in the day we used a small 110v mig and .023 wire. There is a good 50 hrs of welding to be done, and it WILL make a difference. Also, change the bushings in the front of the rear leaf spring to a spherical bearing (speedway has a kit) and consider swapping the shackle for a spring slider.

[TurboBu]

Thanks for the input. Us there a problem using tubular a-arms that retain the strut rod? For the $200-$250 that a set of arms cost you can barely buy bushings, ball joints, clean up and paint the stockers.

My street strip grocery getter http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10946926

[Kenova]

Here are a couple of threads for you to read through.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?95008-Mustang-Cobra-II&highlight=mustang+II

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?17433-Alcino-s-MII-suspension-uncovered&highlight=Alcino

Ken

[feeble]

Working on it but nothing finished yet. I ended up with a stock spindle height Wilwood Pro Spindle, extended upper ball joint, SPC uppers, Speedway tubular lowers.


Adjustable strut rod kits are available, they can be used to adjust the caster.

I am looking for those. Got a link?

Thx!

[Ron Sutton]

Stay with the OE arms. The stock sheetmetal crossmember can't take the load of the lower arm by it self. Go for urethane bushings in the stock arms. Adjustable strut rod kits are available, they can be used to adjust the caster. If your going a bit farther, look into some of the oval track suppliers for a bearing conversion (instead of bushing) in the lower A-arm - this eliminates the bushing bind when adding caster. No limit has 'Smart Spindles', 2" drop with forged in caliper mounts for GM calipers, 11" rotors. Try the 78 must II V8 spring, cut 3/4 coil. look to Addco for sway bars. KYB or Bilstien shocks.

Hi Rob,

I'm curious about these spindles for various projects.

1. Is the caliper bolt pattern 5.46" for the Metric GM floating calipers?
2. Are they available from you? ... or another company with a similar name? Nevermind ... got my answer.

Thanks !!

[feeble]

These perhaps? http://www.nolimitparts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SS-100

No mention of geometry changes (e.g. Wilwood is 1/2" taller than stock), mainly looks like changes to more easily allow the use of GM brake parts.

Here's what I have so far:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I wish the lower arms were about 2" longer. Still working on the anti-roll bar attachment. Shocks are an old set I had that I welded at ride height.

[Ron Sutton]

These perhaps? http://www.nolimitparts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SS-100

No mention of geometry changes (e.g. Wilwood is 1/2" taller than stock), mainly looks like changes to more easily allow the use of GM brake parts.

I wish the lower arms were about 2" longer. Still working on the anti-roll bar attachment. Shocks are an old set I had that I welded at ride height.

Thanks Shawn,

Do you want the lower arms to be 2" longer to widen the track width? ... or to run wheels with more back spacing?

[feeble]

Both really, but mostly to run wheels with more back spacing to improve the scrub radius. In addition, the layout I did also showed that the roll center didn't move around as much with the longer arms. In my layout, IIRC, I lengthened the upper arm slightly as well.

[TurboBu]

Keep posting

[Ron Sutton]

Both really, but mostly to run wheels with more back spacing to improve the scrub radius. In addition, the layout I did also showed that the roll center didn't move around as much with the longer arms. In my layout, IIRC, I lengthened the upper arm slightly as well.

I agree.

[RobNoLimit]

Correct - almost. The Smart-Spindle is a hybrid. Mostly MII on the suspension side, and midsize GM on the brake side. (spindle shaft is a clone of the GM, so GM bearings and seals, and no pad spacers or goofy spindle nuts) The forged in caliper mount has an OE style load arm to keep the caliper squared up on the rotor. Geometry is close to MII. Total height is +1/4", steering arm is a bit lower (to compensate for higher caster numbers without bump problems) and slightly pushed outboard (acreman gain) These are small changes, but make for great driving and easy to maintain street rods. I have also used the Wilwood AME spindle, it's a bit lighter than OE, and a good choice for 12"+ brakes.

[Ron Sutton]

Correct - almost. The Smart-Spindle is a hybrid. Mostly MII on the suspension side, and midsize GM on the brake side. (spindle shaft is a clone of the GM, so GM bearings and seals, and no pad spacers or goofy spindle nuts) The forged in caliper mount has an OE style load arm to keep the caliper squared up on the rotor. Geometry is close to MII. Total height is +1/4", steering arm is a bit lower (to compensate for higher caster numbers without bump problems) and slightly pushed outboard (acreman gain) These are small changes, but make for great driving and easy to maintain street rods. I have also used the Wilwood AME spindle, it's a bit lighter than OE, and a good choice for 12"+ brakes.

Thanks Rob !

[TurboBu]

So what if anything would be wrong with adapting dirt late model style upper and lower a-arms 2" or so longer than stock? With either a coil over or stick style spring?

[feeble]

Bump up.

Does anyone know how long the lower control arms are that Art Morrison uses on their chassis that uses the Wilwood Pro-Spindle? I can design about anything, but coming up with something that looks nice and can be built in my garage with tools on hand is another matter.

[ProMav71]

Thanks for the input. Us there a problem using tubular a-arms that retain the strut rod? For the $200-$250 that a set of arms cost you can barely buy bushings, ball joints, clean up and paint the stockers.

My street strip grocery getter http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10946926

I was thinking the same thing. I was shocked when I went and priced rebuilding the lower arms on my pinto, then the price of the strut rod bushings really got me. I'm already using a set of non-adjustable tubular upper arms. And I have a set of tubular a-arms for the bottom as well off another project. But after getting it apart and realizing how thin the construction is on the cross-member I figured boxing the whole deal and fully welding everything would be a necessity. So I'm thinking of going this route you mentioned and just retain the strut rod. I'm using the Wilwood Pro-spindle as well, and have mounted a set of 13" disc brakes off a 98 Cobra on them, with some custom brackets. Good thing about these spindles is the ease of mounting different brake setups not to mention the better geometry.

[feeble]

So I'm thinking of going this route you mentioned and just retain the strut rod. I'm using the Wilwood Pro-spindle as well, and have mounted a set of 13" disc brakes off a 98 Cobra on them, with some custom brackets.

Sounds like we duplicated our efforts some, I have 13" Cobra based brakes on the Pro Spindles with custom brackets as well. I used a 2 piece rotor and hat though so I could set the Brembo calipers back further to clear the back side of the wheel center.

Although my car still has the strut rods for now, I don't like it. You aren't supposed to use urethane strut rod bushings as they overload the strut rod and can cause it to break (at least on 1st gen Mustangs: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/broken-strut-rod-it-happens.441214/). Using rubber strut rod bushings is probably going to allow quite a bit of movement of the lower control arm under hard braking.

So what are we left with? Speedway has a kit that adds a pivot (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tubular-Strut-Rod,2110.html) or you can use an aftermarket lower a-arm.

What I would like to see is and haven't been able to find for the Pinto / Mustang II suspension is an adjustable strut rod: https://www.google.com/search?q=mustang+adjustable+strut+rod&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KGM2UsTTOePi2QXXw4DICg&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1920&bih=955&dpr=1

[ProMav71]

Sounds like we duplicated our efforts some, I have 13" Cobra based brakes on the Pro Spindles with custom brackets as well. I used a 2 piece rotor and hat though so I could set the Brembo calipers back further to clear the back side of the wheel center.

Although my car still has the strut rods for now, I don't like it. You aren't supposed to use urethane strut rod bushings as they overload the strut rod and can cause it to break (at least on 1st gen Mustangs: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/broken-strut-rod-it-happens.441214/). Using rubber strut rod bushings is probably going to allow quite a bit of movement of the lower control arm under hard braking.

So what are we left with? Speedway has a kit that adds a pivot (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tubular-Strut-Rod,2110.html) or you can use an aftermarket lower a-arm.

What I would like to see is and haven't been able to find for the Pinto / Mustang II suspension is an adjustable strut rod: https://www.google.com/search?q=mustang+adjustable+strut+rod&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KGM2UsTTOePi2QXXw4DICg&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1920&bih=955&dpr=1

Yea it sounds like we have similar setups. I know what you mean about clearing the wheels with the brake calipers. Mine would have cleared but I decided to run a set of billet spacers with 3" long ARP wheel studs, mainly to clear the strut rod when turning. If I had a heavier car I probably wouldn't have went this route but it has seemed fine so far.


I'm glad you mentioned the urethane strut rod bushings because I was about to order a set, glad I didnt do that! After looking at the link you posted a think fabbing up an adjustable arm wouldn't be too terrible difficult. Although I think since I already have the lower a-arms I may just go ahead and box the crossmember and weld it in and call it a day.

[alcino]

Lots of good info here. When I get some time I'm going to try adding some MIG welds to tighten mine up(thanks!). Just saw Rockin Rob last weekend at USCA Fontana and wish I knew he was a mini stock expert. I would have asked for every tip and trick he knew.

FYI, I have had the p-s-t poly-urethane front kit (strut rods and all) for over 15 years. I run my car hard in autox/trackdays and daily drive and have not had any broken strut rods. Do all the cheap and simple stuff first(new bushings/balljoints, performance alignment, quality tires). You'll be surprised how little it takes to make this suspension work well.

[Twentyover]

Please- Just kill me now and be done with it

OK, the little bronze ava-car is a German Ford Capri marketed as a Mercury Capri in the mid-70’s. It was a fun little car that I learned (by doing) what not to do in almost every area of suspension. It’s a true MacPhearson (Mac-Fear-some) strut front suspension, which means the only way to get it to work is to tighten the front end down so the front won’t roll you into positive camber in a turn, then give away grip at the rear to try to restore balance. Or run stupid ricer static camber to stay negative in roll. Short 9 ½ inch lower control arms (track arms) don’t help pulling the bottom of the wheel in as the suspension compresses.

To get it to work as poorly as it finally did, I literally locked it down. The only suspension travel was in the tire sidewall, the rest of the strut/spring/coil was pretty much in solid stack. Enough. I’m a fat old man now, still want the car to handle, but now know the one true path to suspension enlightenment is a SLA front suspension.

Track is a narrow 53.3”; I want to keep the existing tire in the wheelhouse, no big flares, no flares at all. Not interested in narrowed arms to fit inside the car- thinking I’m better off building a freak cross member and shortening the steering rack to fit using a more or less stock arm length.


So my question, and it’s been a long time getting here, I figure a Mustang II (there, I said it) based front suspension would be an improvement. What I’m looking for is some input on changes that will get me more negative camber gain in roll so I can start with a more civilized – ½ to -1 ½ degree negative static. Surely someone here has a copy of Performance Trends suspension analyzer; or has experience with the model that can give some educated advice? I know the MII is a poo-poohed suspension, but can it be any worse that the non-suspension currently in the car?

I've read
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/17433-Alcino-s-MII-suspension-uncovered?highlight=Alcino
and
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/95008-Mustang-Cobra-II?highlight=mustang%20II

They have been helpful- Just hoping anyone who has any information that will help me out a little more