Upgrade Current setup or go LS

[pro86tourn]

Hey guys i have been tossing this idea around for a while and i just cant seem to pull the trigger either way and my car is suffering by sitting in the garage the last two seasons.

I built a chevy 327 (love those engines) i scrapped the top end and thinking about upgrading it full roller aluminum heads ect. that will cost me around $3500 bucks.

OR

Should i scrap that engine completely and go LS...


cost is my #1 concern at the moment so id like to avoid headaches and tons of mods. I also would like to keep my t5 if possible as money is tight to jump to a t56 currently

[XLexusTech]

if cost is your #1 concern you should be able to rebuild a 327 for 1-2 K. If your spenfin more then that move to an LS

[pro86tourn]

Well I would like to spend as little as possible at this time to get the car going and enjoy it. the 327 is fresh and completely built and balanced ground up, i would just be converting it to full roller and nice heads and all that jazz. to do that will probably cost around 3500 bucks. theres no way you can buy all top end roller cam, heads, lifters, carb, intake ect.. for 1-2k

As far as switching to LS i would have to get a used probably very high milage engine that would potentially make much less power, and im not sure about how difficult all the wiring and stuff that goes along with the swap and other modifications.

Im conflicted s to just waiting another season of not driving the car and saving for a LS tear it down and freshen it up and do it all then.

that being said i am comfortable with re and reing engines and trans swaps. but the LS kind of scares me!

Im sorry for rambling i just find myself so torn and since i got the 327 ive put maybe 50 km on it. Im getting quite frustrated not enjoying the my car!

[k9kevin81]

Save a bit and go LS all the way. My 4500.00 simple roller has turned into a 8k supercharged SBC. You can find a NICE LS for a few grand more than you have budgeted. Then you have to think of the tranny, headers, electronics, cross member etc. I would save and get the LS, then buy your swap parts as money becomes available. I know this is the way I would have went looking back. If it runs now enjoy it and drive it. Just my .02 good luck!

[Corey R.]

Save a bit and go LS all the way. My 4500.00 simple roller has turned into a 8k supercharged SBC. You can find a NICE LS for a few grand more than you have budgeted. Then you have to think of the tranny, headers, electronics, cross member etc. I would save and get the LS, then buy your swap parts as money becomes available. I know this is the way I would have went looking back. If it runs now enjoy it and drive it. Just my .02 good luck!

Problem is "those other parts" add up fast.

Some question I ask are how much do you drive the car, and how much of the work are you going to do yourself? I am in your same boat. I just blew my 327 up, and I am not going to even bother spending the money to repair it. I considered going LS, but the out the door costs and larger project time added up to way more than I wanted to spend. I don't feel like completing that swap myself, and a local shop in Tampa quoted me $14,000 for a junkyard 5.3/T56 combo. That is a lot of time and money for a car I only drive the car ~500 miles a year.

As of now I am looking to just replace it with a zz383 425 HP GMPP engine.

[Ron Sutton]

As you can tell, there are a lot of LS supporters here, because it is a great engine package. It is the best modern day engine.

Of course, to fully make the swap ... with all the parts changes outside the engine ... and end up with a new or fresh LS making 400 hp is going to cost more than $3500, unless you find a steal on an unfinished project.

You can put a new roller cam & heads on your engine for under $3500, make 400 hp & be driving it. For that matter, isn't your current 327 complete & running? You could be driving it now ... so why aren't you? :poke:

[Thephranc]

Do the top end and plop a new fangled EFI unit from MSD, FAST, E-brock, etc.

[camaroinct]

I did the same upgrade on my 350 LT1, $3500 is about right, you can easily get over 500hp on that 327, your compression ratio will play a big part with power and cam selection. I don't know what your hp number is or your tuning skills, but the more power you make the more attention the engine will need. You can be back on the road fast with that upgrade! Sell the engine / parts later when you look to move to another combo. Get out and enjoy your car. If you go with the upgrade i would be interested in what you select for parts.

[pro86tourn]

Thanks so much for the reply's guys! The car is not currently running and has been apart for .. this will be the 2nd season. I sold the top end to fund the new parts and just havent been able to decide since!

Here is my parts list so far. I know MANY of you are much more experienced then me, i am 24 i have no issues swapping engines and assembling them, but picking parts im not the best at!

Edelbrock e-tec Heads -60975
Edelbrock Hydro Cam kit -22015
Comp ultra gold roller rockers 1.5- 249-19001-16
Edelbrock RPM air gap- 350-7516
msd 6al- 121-6425 (not sure hot to connect this to my existing HEI MSD distributor)
holly ultra double pumper 650- 510-0-76650B
edelbrock fuel pump- 1721
ARP- 070-534-9701
moroso oil pan- 20170
fel pro- 375-2802
edelbrock intake gasket - 7235

Sorry for the long post. any advice would be great

[Ron Sutton]

The heads & cam don't compliment each other. The cam has lift of .539" / .548" and the flow of the heads start to nose over & experience diminishing returns above .480" lift.

What are your goals for ...
HP?
Torque?
Optimum power band rpm range?

[pro86tourn]

would i be better off with the bigger 60989 head?

as for HP obviously as much as possible but my goal is 400+, as far as rpm range, the car will be a street car so 0-6500 will be optimal.

[Ron Sutton]

would i be better off with the bigger 60989 head?

as for HP obviously as much as possible but my goal is 400+, as far as rpm range, the car will be a street car so 0-6500 will be optimal.

Your goals need to be a little more clear ... and the combination more realistic. You can't build the most power from 327 cubic inches & ask it to run good from idle up. Those goals conflict. All engine, suspension, car, (life) combinations are a compromise.

Let me ask it this way ... which of the following scenarios best fits your wishes?

a. 300Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from idle to 4500 rpm. Peak torque around 2500 rpm.
b. 325Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3000 rpm.
c. 350Hp / 340# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3500 rpm.
d. 385Hp / 350# Torque with optimum operating range from 2500 to 6000 rpm. Peak torque around 4000 rpm.
e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.
f. 740Hp / 500# torque with optimum operating range from 6000 to 8500 rpm. Peak torque around 7000 rpm. :yum:

* All of these combinations will rev higher but best power is in the range outlined.
** As you move up in power combo & operating range, low rpm torque & fuel efficiency reduce.

The key here is deciding what best fits your personal wants & needs. Let me know. I'm glad to help you work out a good combo.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Thanks Ron,

I would say the most reasonable goals with my budget in mind would put me around this power/rpm range.

e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.

Using the above parts list mentioned, do you suggest making any amends to reach this goal?

Thanks again.

[Ron Sutton]

Yes, you'll need different cylinder heads ... as the port runner & valve size in the Edelbrock e-tec Heads #60975 ... are way too small for your goals & the cam selected.

I'm hesitant to make recommendations utilizing the Edelbrock parts, because I am less familiar with them. All of their stuff is good & they are a super company. I have some experience with their heads & no experience with their cams. I have tons more experience with heads from Dart, Brodix, RHS, AFR & top head porters. I have a lot of experience with most cam companies over the last 3 decades, but after testing, testing & testing a gazillion different cams in hundreds of engine combinations, we always end up making the best power under the curve with Comp Cams. Even when another brand of cam has the exact same specs, the lobe profiles offered by Comp Cams tend to build more power & are easier on the valvetrain. That is our experience. Ask 10 other engine builders & you'll get 14 & 1/2 different viewpoints.

The Edelbrock cam you mentioned, specs out at 234° / 238° duration @ .050" ... .539" / .548" lift ... 112° Lobe Separation & 107° Intake Centerline. This is in the ballpark camwise. Comp Cams ofers the XR288HR (#12-433-8) that specs out at 236° / 242° @ .050" ... .520" / .540" ... 110° Lobe Separation & 106° Intake Centerline.

In my experience, I prefer the larger duration split of the Comp Cam with 6° more exhaust duration than the Edelbrock cam with 4° more exhaust duration, to help with higher rpm exhaust scavenging without hurting low-end & mid-range power. The smaller 110° Lobe Separation of the Comp Cam (versus 112° on the Edelbrock) increases maximum torque & moves the torque peak to lower, more usable RPM. The better cam lobe ramp profiles are not easily measured, let alone discussed, but all of our testing shows the Comp Cam lobe ramp profiles fill the cylinder quicker & more fully.

Edelbrock heads are designed for lower rpm ranges, perfoming excellent in hot rods & street cruisers. Even when offered in bigger runner sizes, the flow technology is not there to produce optimum power.

Examples:
Edelbrock E-Tec 170 Flows 232cfm at .500" lift ... and only 238cfm at .600" ... which indicates air flow stall in this lift range.
* The original head you were planning on

Edelbrock E-Tec 200 Flows 252cfm at .500" lift ... and only 259cfm at .600" ... which indicates air flow stall in this lift range.
*The runner is much bigger at 200cc in volume, but still doesn't like cam lifts much over .500"

Dart Pro1 180 Flows 257cfm at .500" lift ... and 266cfm at .600".
* This is more airflow than the Edelbrock 200cc runner head ... in a 180cc runner head ... building WAY more velocity, torque & total power across the rpm range.

Dart Pro1 200 Flows 264cfm at .500" lift ... and 272cfm at .600".
* This is more airflow than the Edelbrock ... comparing both with the same size 200cc runner head ... building more velocity, torque & total power across the rpm range.

Would you like me to pull together a suggested package with Dart, Comp Cam & Edelbrock parts, or are you going the Edelbrock route? I'm glad to help either way.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thank you so much for your wealth of knowledge I am extremely grateful.

I am by no means bias to use the edelbrock route. I selected that cam kit, as it comes with the correct size pushrods needed and as far as my abilities go for selecting parts it makes my life much easier.

I would love to hear a suggested package that includes Dart, comp and edelbrock parts. or if possible a comparison or the two setups (est HP & TQ wise) , this could prove very beneficial for others that my come across this thread!

I am very excited to putting together a final parts list and seeing what kinda juice can be had out of this little 327!

Also if it helps the car is a 5 speed, not automatic. and eventually will be t-56.

Thanks again for the assistance

[Ron Sutton]

You're welcome, I have a few questions that you'll need to get answers to before you bolt stuff on.

Are the pistons flat top or dome?
* If dome, do you (or your original engine builder) know the piston part # or cc of the dome itself?
* If flat top, is there 1 set of "eyebrows" for the valve reliefs or two sets?

*Regardless, at TDC, how much clearance from the piston to the deck ... exact ... in thousandths?

[Ron Sutton]

Okie Dokie … here are two combinations.

Both are based on:
327 bored .030” to 331 CID
10-1 compression with flat top pistons
Quality internals

Heads for both combinations:
Dart Pro1 200 Aluminum Heads - 64cc +/- (to start)
2.02 Intake & 1.60 Exhaust valves

Cometic Head gasket 4.060”’ x .030” (6cc)
If piston has .030 clearance to deck, that’s 7.3cc (adjust accordingly)
If pistons have 1 “eyebrow” (reliefs for 2 valves) that’s around 4cc

You need 75.5cc total, counting the chamber, gasket & piston-to-deck-clearance. So you will need to remove about 6cc from the head chambers, with a modest milling, before you install them.

Roller Rockers: 1.5 Ratio – Recommend Comp Cams Ultra-Pro Magnum or Crower Stainless Steel rockers.

--------------------------------------------------

Combination #1 – Awesome Street Package
422HP @ 6500 RPM
385# Torque @ 4500 RPM

Cam: Comp Cams XR288HR (Hydraulic Roller)
Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer Airgap
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-5/8” stepping up to 1-3/4” tube diameter & 32-34” length

--------------------------------------------------

Combination #2 – Awesome Track Package
452HP @ 6500 RPM
395# Torque @ 5000 RPM

Cam: Comp Cams XR294HR (Hydraulic Roller)
Intake: Edelbrock Victor Jr.
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-3/4” stepping up to 1-7/8” tube diameter & 32-34” length

--------------------------------------------------

Here is a computer generated dyno sheet of the two combinations compared to each other. The power curve tells an engine’s personality & the differences show here on each side of 4500 rpm.

77729

The Combination #1 will make a better Street Package, building impressive torque … especially for a short stroke 327 … from 2000 to 4500 rpm where you’ll spend most of your time on the street.

The Combination #2 will make a better Track Package, reducing low end torque some to aid traction on corner exits & building more power from 4500 to 6500 where you’ll spend most of your time on the track.

But neither is far from the other. These two packages are close & the torque curve will be real driver friendly in either one. You’re just deciding where you want to give some & gain some.



If anyone has any questions, feel free to chime in on this thread.

Ron Sutton

[silvermonte]

Thank you for the info Ron. Im not even building an engine at the moment and this was a fun read, taking the time to help like this is great thing you are doing. I wish when i had picked out parts for my motor a year ago Id had something like this and I would of sleep better while i made my choices and not worrying if they are mis matched or not.

And to the OP, stick with your SBC it would be much cheaper to get it running then doing the swap to LS by the time you add in the fuel tank stuff and the motor mounts and wires and all that jazz.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Wow lots of great info from Ron and having just gone through that scenario I can appreciate what you are going through. I can honestly tell you that from what I ended up spending on my SBC I wish I had gone LS. BUT, my car is all apart so I have time and I think Ron has steered you in the right direction so you can drive the car NOW. My plan is to build the LS engine I want and change it up after I've got the car on the road and enjoy it for a while.

In my opinion, if you want to play in the 500HP range you need all the other goodies that will make it reliable. Anyone can make big HP for a couple runs so be realistic on your HP and make the car reliable so you can get in it and drive it. You can build the LS later and change it up because its not just the LS you need, think headers, wiring, clutch, air intake, accessory-driveS, ECM, etc.etc.etc.

Have a look at my build and you can see what I've built that makes a reliable 500hp 'ish range SBC you can enjoy.

Good Luck :drive:

[Ron Sutton]

I probably should reiterate, if he was building a car from scratch, or had no engine at all, or had the budget to properly do an LS install, I would be recommending an LS engine.

From his post, his goals were to get his car back running, using his almost new 327 that needs a top end & cam ... for a budget of $3500. As all the experienced guys know, if he bought a used LS engine to swap ... there is a LOT more work & money to actually make it running ... bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, exhaust, wiring, plumbing, tank, etc.

So for around $3500, he can have 400+ HP, on his almost new engine & be out driving it. I'm actually a little jealous. :revto9k:

[Ron Sutton]

Miles & Todd,

Thanks for the kind words.

Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thank you again for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.

As anyone would love to build for the most power possible the car will be seeing only the street for a few years until the suspension and brakes are completed. That being said I believe motor option #1 is best for my use as it builds power in the lower rpm range.

To respond to your earlier question the pistons are flat top, but have 2 sets of eye brow valve reliefs. (i hope this will work!) As far as checking the piston height to the deck at TDC, i do not have the gauge to measure that. I have went to a few local stores to try and source one with no luck. Would a straight edge and a feeler gauge be too inaccurate?

Moving on to the heads. i see the ones you outlined are the 64cc, dart also has that head in a 72cc which would bring us closer to the desired 75.5cc. Im completely new to this so bare with my stupid questions :| . If i understand correctly before the heads are installed i would have to bring them to a machine shop and tell them i need them milled to a total of 75.5cc. I assume this isnt a tough task for them and is relatively inexpensive? bringing the chamber to 75.5cc what exactly does that improve as far as power goes? sorry again for the dumb question!

Moving on to the gasket! i now assume once i have figured out the other clearances with the numbers i provide then we can move forward with selecting the correct gasket thickness to maintain compression?

The Comp cam selected looked great, hopefully a nice lumpy idle! I looked briefly if comp sells a complete kit. My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.

As far as the Carb i was looking into the holly ultra DP 650, would the same carb in a 750 work?

okay i dont think i am missing anything else. If anyone can see from my previous parts list to the current spec'd parts from Ron and notices that i am missing something please chime in!

Ron Thanks again, I look forward to hearing my next steps!

[Thephranc]

This turned into an amazingly informative thread.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, Thank you again for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.
No worries. Just like to help.

As anyone would love to build for the most power possible the car will be seeing only the street for a few years until the suspension and brakes are completed. That being said I believe motor option #1 is best for my use as it builds power in the lower rpm range.
Cool. That is what I would have picked for your application too. You will really enjoy it on the street.

To respond to your earlier question the pistons are flat top, but have 2 sets of eye brow valve reliefs. (i hope this will work!)
It adds a small amount of cc to the total combustion camber volume with the piston at Top Dead Center (TDC). So that means the combustion chamber in the heads will need to be reduced by tha amount to achieve the 10-1 compression. With this cam ... compression ratio is very important. Dropping to 9.3-1 compression loses about 10 hp in the upper rpms, but really hurts low-end & mid-range torque.

As far as checking the piston height to the deck at TDC, I do not have the gauge to measure that. I have went to a few local stores to try and source one with no luck. Would a straight edge and a feeler gauge be too inaccurate?
Quite frankly that will work fine. You need the piston at exactly TDC. Get me the clearance measurement when you have it & I will do the calcs for you.


Moving on to the heads. i see the ones you outlined are the 64cc, dart also has that head in a 72cc which would bring us closer to the desired 75.5cc.
I understand the confusion. But, you're not looking for the cylinder head combustion chamber to have 75.5c by itself ... you are looking for the "total combustion camber volume" to be 75.5cc.

The "total combustion camber volume" includes:

1. The head combustion chamber volume
2. The head gasket combustion chamber volume
3. The piston top to deck clearance combustion chamber volume
4. The piston valve reliefs (or dome).
You add all of these up to arrive at the "total combustion camber volume" ... except in the case of dome pistons. With domed pistons you add the CC's from 1-3 ... and subtract the CC's of the piston dome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So ... for your engine:
1. The head combustion chamber volume = 64cc (out of the box advertised number, but these vary.)
2. The head gasket combustion chamber volume = 6cc with this special gasket
3. The piston top to deck clearance combustion chamber volume = 6.3** ... assuming you have .030" clearance.
4. The piston valve reliefs (or dome) = 5.5cc***

These add up to 81.8cc "total combustion camber volume" which would make your compression ratio 9.3-1. This is too low for this cam. The dyno simulation shows it loses about 10 hp in the upper rpms, & lose 12# of torque ... but in my real world experience ... the LOSS in responsiveness, low-rpm torque & mid range power will be bad, and you won't like it.

77749

So ... you need to go to a experienced race engine shop & have them "cc" your new heads ... then mill them just enough to achieve 58cc chambers ... and bolt them on with the head gasket I recommended & you'll be set.

** In the previous post, I stated .030" piston top to deck clearance equaled 7.3cc, but I made a mistake. It is actually 6.3cc.
*** Common pistons with 4 valve reliefs vary from 2.5cc to 6.3cc, depending on how deep the manufacturer makes the valve reliefs. I am NOT suggesting you measure yours. We'll just use the number of 5.5cc & be close.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im completely new to this so bare with my stupid questions :| . If i understand correctly before the heads are installed i would have to bring them to a machine shop and tell them i need them milled to a total of 75.5cc.
Incorrect. Refer to above.

I assume this isnt a tough task for them and is relatively inexpensive?
No, it's not difficult, but you want good guys doing the work. CC'ing & milling heads should not cost more than a couple hundred dollars.

bringing the chamber to 75.5cc what exactly does that improve as far as power goes? sorry again for the dumb question!
Incorrect. Refer to above.

Moving on to the gasket! i now assume once i have figured out the other clearances with the numbers i provide then we can move forward with selecting the correct gasket thickness to maintain compression?
I already suggested the best thin gasket available to help you achieve your needed compression ratio target. The 4.060' bore x .030" thick MLS gasket from Cometic. MLS is Multi-Layer-Steel ... and when the gasket gets thinner than .035" ... you get gasket strength back by going to MLS. I use Felpro a lot & Felpro makes MLS gaskets too, but Cometic is king of the MLS gaskets.

The Comp cam selected looked great, hopefully a nice lumpy idle!
It will sound mean ... because it is.

I looked briefly if comp sells a complete kit.
Comp Cams can suggest exactly what you need. Call their tech support line at 800-999-0853. They have some of the best tech support in the business.

My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.
Do NOT buy your pushrods yet. Get the heads, cam & lifters installed in the engine ... and use the Manley #42132 pushrod length checking tool ... along with one of your stock pushrods ... to determine the correct pushrod length you need. Then order the pushrods from Comp that are closest to your measurement.

77750

As far as the Carb i was looking into the holly ultra DP 650, would the same carb in a 750 work?
Yup ... sure will.

okay i dont think i am missing anything else. If anyone can see from my previous parts list to the current spec'd parts from Ron and notices that i am missing something please chime in!

Ron Thanks again, I look forward to hearing my next steps!
You're welcome!

[Ron Sutton]

This turned into an amazingly informative thread.

Cool. Thanks. Feel free to chime in with questions or comments.

Ron Sutton

[Ron Sutton]

Oh ... what kind of car is this engine in?

I may be able to recommend headers.

[Ron Sutton]

When you install the cam, use a quality timing chain set that allows you to advance or retard the cam with bushings or different keyway slots.

You will want to install this cam at 4° Advanced.

You will want to check piston to valve clearance before you do final installation of the heads. When you get the heads ready, let me know & I'll guide you on how to do this.

[pro86tourn]

Ron, im not home yet so i haven't been able to check the piston to deck clearances.

The car is a 87 monte carlo ss. T-5 trans, with hydro clutch. the car currently has headers, i forget the exact ones but the had to be modified to work to clear the slave cylinder.

Any advice on a timing chain?

thanks again for the VERY informative post.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, im not home yet so i haven't been able to check the piston to deck clearances.
No worries. Just post when you do.

The car is a 87 monte carlo ss. T-5 trans, with hydro clutch. the car currently has headers, i forget the exact ones but the had to be modified to work to clear the slave cylinder.
Figure out what size the OD of the primary tubes are & post the size.


Any advice on a timing chain?
Yes, Cloyes Billet True Roller #9-3500TX9

thanks again for the VERY informative post.

No worries. Keep us in the loop as you progress, by posting on this forum thread. If you show photos of your self doing these steps, it will help others.

[Thephranc]

My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.
Do NOT buy your pushrods yet. Get the heads, cam & lifters installed in the engine ... and use the Manley #42132 pushrod length checking tool ... along with one of your stock pushrods ... to determine the correct pushrod length you need. Then order the pushrods from Comp that are closest to your measurement.

77750



Would you go up to the next closest size or down if you fall between two sizes?

[Jok3r]

im about to build my 350 as well. but 3500$ is way too much. im gonna build mine exactly like hot rod magazine and superchevy did their 350's. they did over 400hp for around 1000$
>Chump ChangeChallenge 350 PricingPro Comp Heads$580.00Professional Products Intake$129.00Complete 350 Motor, Pick-a-Part(Wrecking Yard)$200.00Core charge$0.00Gaskets set- Motorville(MRG-7100)$25.00E-Bay Comp Cam$159.00Pro Comp CastAluminum Valve Covers$33.00Summit Racing Pushrods$29.00Chump Change Total Build Cost$1155.00
for more http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/completebuilds_testing/sucp_0910_chevy_350_engine_build/viewall.html
only thing im gonna do different is get RHS heads.

i also looked into putting an ls1 into my 87 camaro. it looked like it would cost me 4k+. LS1$1200. wiring harness $3-500. t56 trans $1000. driveshaft $800. then theres the fabrication of 93+ camaro peddles into the car and wiring the new engine to the old car which both seem pretty difficult. then the little stuff like motor mounts, crossmember, radiator, exhaust etc, which will add up fast. LS1 swap is for $$ show cars and big $$$$ projects. not the average muscle car imo.

[Ron Sutton]

Would you go up to the next closest size or down if you fall between two sizes?

Comp offers pushrods in lengths every .050". Rarely does that number fall right in the middle, so I just go with the closest. If he were to put the stock 7.800" pushrod in there (measure it to be sure that it is still 7.800") and the gap is .062" ... I'd go .050" longer than stock & order the 7.850" length of pushrods.

If the number worked out exactly in the middle, I go with the shorter one for two reasons (in case we mill the head more at a later date & where the roller tip ends up on the valve at max lift) ... but we're splitting hairs here now.

In super high dollar or crazy rpm engines, we would order the pushrods the exact needed length. :revto9k:
That would be a waste of money here.

[pro86tourn]

Ok Im back with new information hopefully you can work with this Ron!

So upon my best attempts at using a feeler gauge at tdc. it seems the reading is .030. I have a few questions regarding the pistons that were used in the build. I took pictures to show you, my fathers friend originally had the motor built so i am unsure but when i removed some of the carbon build up (car was run for VERY little miles before pulled apart and never tuned) i noticed the 6 rear pistons look different then the front 2 :|

As far as CCing the heads does that mean reducing the chamber size from 64cc down? I did not know that was possible! So if we play with gaskets and head work the desired 10.1 is still achievable correct? *fingers crossed*

I measured the inside diameter of the header tube and got 1.5'' and down to the collector is 2.5''

As far as installing the cam degreed i will need a degree wheel correct? and to check the rest of the clearances I will require parts on hand.

I am not sure if I am missing any questions but if i am please let me know! hopefully this will turn out to be a bad ass little motor.

Here are some pics

I look forward to your response! Thanks! (also if there are any ways to save a few bucks from my original parts list or any further recommendations let me know!)

also i posted a pic of the car when it was out. All original garage stored 54,000 km car is in perfect shape.

[Ron Sutton]

Ok Im back with new information hopefully you can work with this Ron!

So upon my best attempts at using a feeler gauge at tdc. it seems the reading is .030.
Good. That is "normal" and what we already calculated for.

I have a few questions regarding the pistons that were used in the build. I took pictures to show you, my fathers friend originally had the motor built so i am unsure but when i removed some of the carbon build up (car was run for VERY little miles before pulled apart and never tuned)
I think it may have been run longer than you think. Not that means it won't be fine. But I'd like to see a photo of the cylinder walls with the piston at BDC.


i noticed the 6 rear pistons look different then the front 2 :|
Hmmmm. It's clear that the one piston is a .020" over (the std bore) piston. I can't tell on the other one "for sure" because it says .020 on one side & what looks to be .030 on the other side. This isn't great news, but not a deal breaker either.

There is a concern the engine isn't balanced, but that's not a deal breaker from having a fun street engine either.


As far as CCing the heads does that mean reducing the chamber size from 64cc down?
"CC'ing the heads" is a slang term for measuring the CC's in the chambers. With the head upside down on a stand, you put a plexiglass piece over the chamber (with a fill hole in it) and fill it slowly with a colored fluid (I use red Marvel Mystery oil) out of a lab burette marked in CC's. If it takes 64cc to fill it up it is a 64cc chamber. Make sense?

77795

Yes, by milling the head surface, you are reducing the volume of the combustion chamber.

I did not know that was possible! So if we play with gaskets and head work the desired 10.1 is still achievable correct? *fingers crossed*
Yes, that is what I outlined for you.

With your engine:
1. The new Dart 64cc heads combustion chamber volume should be around 64cc (but these vary & should be "CC'd" or measured.)
2. The head gasket I recommended adds 6.4cc
3. The .030" piston top to deck clearance adds 6.3cc
4. I estimate these piston valve reliefs add about 5cc

That all adds up to 81.7cc. You need to be around 75.5cc ... so the engine shop needs to mill enough off of your heads to get to about 58cc. This is very "doable" on this head. My only concern is going to be piston to valve clearance with your new cam.

If you're not comfortable doing this yourself, then I'd take everything to a good engine shop, so they can check it ... and flycut the valve reliefs deeper in the pistons if they find you don't have enough valve clearance.

If you want to learn ... I'll be happy to walk you through it ... but like all things in hot rod cars ... it may not be a "easy bolt on." If you need more valve clearance, the short block will need to be disassembled so the pistons can be set up in the mill & cut.

I measured the inside diameter of the header tube and got 1.5'' and down to the collector is 2.5''
If they are 1.5" inside & have .058 or .065 wall tubing, you have 1-5/8" headers. If you're really on a budget, they will work ok. Youdidn't say how long the tubes were or if the tubes are equal length. That would play a role in my decision to run them or not.

A suggestion is ... leave the headers alone for now ... get the engine altogether ... and if you have $ left, buy a good set of stepped headers, that start at 1-5/8" & step up to 1-3/4" with equal length primary tubes 32"-34" long. If you end up out of dough ... you can run these headers for a while ... they will just make a little less power.


As far as installing the cam degreed i will need a degree wheel correct?
Not necessarily. Comp Cams are accurate in their profile & the Cloyes timing gear set is accurate too. If you install the Cloyes timing set 4° Advanced, it will be correct in my experience with their products.

and to check the rest of the clearances I will require parts on hand.
You will need some clay or play-doh & a digital caliper.

I am not sure if I am missing any questions but if i am please let me know! hopefully this will turn out to be a bad ass little motor.
I have 2 concerns.

1. You don't have any experience at this, so I don't want you to make any mistakes. If you're concerned, you should have a local engine shop do the work. If you're committed to learning ... knowing you could make an expensive mistake ... I'm willing to teach you. But I can't be there to check things first hand.

2. That engine is DIRTY. It looks like it has been setting for some time unprotected. If that is the case, the shortblock needs to be disassembled, everything cleaned & properly reassembled. That would also be a good time to inspect the bearings, crank surfaces, and potentially do some other things to insure you have a good engine with no problems.

Again, If you're concerned, you should have a local engine shop do the work. If you're committed to learning ... knowing you could make an expensive mistake ... I'm willing to teach you.


Here are some pics

I look forward to your response! Thanks! (also if there are any ways to save a few bucks from my original parts list or any further recommendations let me know!)
I did not add up your parts list. That should be your next task. Get with Comp Cams & work out a detailed parts list, plus heads, intake, gaskets, bolts, oil, etc. ... price it all out from a vendor you want to work with ... and see where the budget ends up. I'm confident it's within the range we discussed, but you need a solid # to make decisions from.


also i posted a pic of the car when it was out. All original garage stored 54,000 km car is in perfect shape.
That baby is NICE. Love it. Can't wait to see it on the road.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thanks again for your response.

Here is the backround on the motor. My dads friend had the engine built back in the day lets say in the 90's. I bought engine off him about 6 years ago, when i first recieved the motor i tore it all apart (but i left the pistons intact, everything else was completely disasmbled) I sent out the old heads for inspetion and had them decked everything was perfect as they already had been updated springs, guides ect.. i put it all back together i will upload pics tonight and drove the car for 3 months give or take ran great but i wanted more power. Sold al the new parts i bought (all the top end ect) and this is where it has sat for aprox 1.5 years. As you can see from the picture the cross hatches are still good when motor ran didnt burn any oil or any issues.

I have a few concerns. As with any build i know the unkown is always going to occur, if i get into bottom end tear downs from a engine shop the cost will skyrocket. (i am not sure the average cost for these tasks that i will require) would it be worth it to save this bottom end or save until next season and just go crate motor? I'd love to get it driving now though :(!

secondly as for potentially cutting up the pistons and cc'ing heads. would it be cheaper to just get new pistons?

As far as checking the piston to valve clearance it doesnt seem to difficult but spending this kind of money it would be wise to ensure a professional does that, although it would be VERY benifitial for me to learn for future.

Im excited but a bit scared in regards to all the machining, but i know it comes with the territory! I also cant see why there would be 2 different pistons if the engine was put together in a engine shop, and all the oil galeries have been de-bured and polished (under the intake) and i was (told) it was balanced but who knows people talk. i guess i learned my lesson!

Anyways, here is a picture as requested please let me know if i am missing anything or any recommended next steps.

Thanks again

that picture doesnt represent accuratly but the cross hatches are very visable in person

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, Thanks again for your response.

Here is the backround on the motor. My dads friend had the engine built back in the day lets say in the 90's.
Seems like yesterday. :)

I bought engine off him about 6 years ago, when i first recieved the motor i tore it all apart (but i left the pistons intact, everything else was completely disasmbled) I sent out the old heads for inspetion and had them decked everything was perfect as they already had been updated springs, guides ect.. i put it all back together i will upload pics tonight and drove the car for 3 months give or take ran great but i wanted more power. Sold al the new parts i bought (all the top end ect) and this is where it has sat for aprox 1.5 years.
That background helps clarify things.

As you can see from the picture the cross hatches are still good when motor ran didnt burn any oil or any issues.
Good.

I have a few concerns. As with any build i know the unkown is always going to occur, if i get into bottom end tear downs from a engine shop the cost will skyrocket. (i am not sure the average cost for these tasks that i will require) would it be worth it to save this bottom end or save until next season and just go crate motor? I'd love to get it driving now though :(!
That's the unknown. It has to be your call, because once you buy the parts, machine the heads, install the cam ... you're committed ... and will want to see it through. If you're confident in the shortblock, rock on. If not ... well ... that's got to be your call.

secondly as for potentially cutting up the pistons and cc'ing heads. would it be cheaper to just get new pistons?
You may need to do it with new pistons too.

Don't let "cheaper" be your deciding factor. You could throw some junkyard heads on there for cheap, but that doesn't sound like what you want.

Don't let $300 mess up a $3000 project, if you know what I mean.


As far as checking the piston to valve clearance it doesnt seem to difficult but spending this kind of money it would be wise to ensure a professional does that, although it would be VERY benifitial for me to learn for future.
This isn't hard. But the results may be hard to digest. You'll get 1 of 2 outcomes. 1 = good to go ... or 2 = need to take the short block apart & have the pistons flycut.

Additional Note: If this concerns you, and you decide under no circumstances do you want to take the short block apart, another option would be to go with a smaller cam, less compression & less power ... and you won't have to worry about the piston to valve clearance issue.


Im excited but a bit scared in regards to all the machining, but i know it comes with the territory! I also cant see why there would be 2 different pistons if the engine was put together in a engine shop,
This happens often if the engine builder is knowledgable enough about the parts to know that while they may look a bit different, if the pin height, dome shape, weight & clearances work, there is nothing wrong with it.

and all the oil galeries have been de-bured and polished (under the intake)
Cool.

and i was (told) it was balanced but who knows people talk. i guess i learned my lesson!
I'm not sure there is anything wrong to learn a lesson from.


Anyways, here is a picture as requested please let me know if i am missing anything or any recommended next steps.

Thanks again

that picture doesnt represent accuratly but the cross hatches are very visable in person

The cross hatch looks fine. Make sure every cylinder is super clean ... laboratory clean ... OMG clean ... wipe them down with WD-40 to prevent rust ... & just before you bolt the heads on for the final time, wipe the walls with a thin coat of motor oil.

[pro86tourn]

Okay, sounds good.. It seems the next steps are to pull the motor clean it up LAB clean..haha. I spoke with a great engine shop around here who has done lots of work for friends through my years growing up racing he agrees completely with your combo! Also he stated he believes i have nothing to worry about in regards to piston to valve clearance as long as i stay under .600 with the cam. Although i will 150% check it before the engine is put together!

So now I need to get a parts list together.

Edelbrock e-tec Heads -60975 (Switch to dart part #?)
Edelbrock Hydro Cam kit -22015 (Switch to Comp as stated)
Comp ultra gold roller rockers 1.5- 249-19001-16
Comp push rods (order after measured)
Edelbrock RPM air gap- 350-7516
msd 6al- 121-6425 (not sure how to connect this to my existing HEI MSD distributor)
holly ultra double pumper 650- 510-0-76650B
edelbrock fuel pump- 1721
ARP- 070-534-9701
moroso oil pan- 20170
fel pro- 375-2802 (Not sure which kit to buy-Also will buy head gaskets you recommend!)
edelbrock intake gasket - 7235

If there is ANYTHING im missing or stuff i need to add let me know please!

Pic of engine before in its former glory a year before tear down (put it all together when i was 18 myself)

[Todd in Vancouver]

That car is AWESOME! You are gong to have a really nice combination here and I'm looking forward to seeing the video where you fire it up for the first time.

Ron, you the man :cool:

[pro86tourn]

Thanks Todd, not to get off topic but i think maybe Ill share a bit of my story.

I bought my first Monte carlo i got at the age of 14 me and my dad drove down to maryland picked it up and it was a disaster paid $1500 and work and worked for 4 years drove it all through high school (swapped in new engine and 5 speed) we used the wrong throttle linkage and i took it for the 1st test drive turned left off my street gave it a big of gas throttle stuck wide open... i shut off the car stupid me instead of throwing it in neutral..steering locked brakes had no boost i went through a light post and a tree. 4 years of blood sweat and all my money... gone. this is now my 2nd monte 10 years after my first! im just dying to finally enjoy it for once... as they have always been my favourite car.

The interior picture is of my new monte just to show how clean it is! taken just after i swapped the 5 speed. other 2 pics are of my old girl.

warning the following imagines may hurt the heart

[Ron Sutton]

Okay, sounds good.. It seems the next steps are to pull the motor clean it up LAB clean..haha. I spoke with a great engine shop around here who has done lots of work for friends through my years growing up racing he agrees completely with your combo! Also he stated he believes i have nothing to worry about in regards to piston to valve clearance as long as i stay under .600 with the cam. Although i will 150% check it before the engine is put together!

So now I need to get a parts list together.

Here is your parts list ...

Dart Pro1 200 Aluminum Heads 64cc Part #11321112
*Complete with valves & the correct Comp Cams 1.47" dual springs for your cam
Click here for spec sheet (http://www.dartheads.com/products/aitdownloadablefiles/download/aitfile/aitfile_id/104/)
P.S. Your engine shop will need to mill them about .060" to get to 58cc.

Comp Cams Extreme Energy XR288HR (Hyd Roller for 1955-1998 SBC) Part #12-433-8
Click Here for Specs & Parts Needed (http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=161&sb=2)

Comp Cams Lifters: Part #853-16
Comp Cams push rods: Wait until you assembly engine to get exact length
Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rockers 7/16" Stud, 1.52 Ratio #1604-16
Cloyes Billet True Roller Timing Set #9-3500TX9

Edelbrock RPM Performer Air Gap #7501 (for regular SBC heads)
Holley 750 CFM Ultra Double Pumper #0-76750BK
Holley fuel pump #12-327-13
Moroso oil pan #20170 ... you already spec'ed this. Looks OK to me.

MSD 6AL #6425
Do you have This Distributor (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Chevrolet/Ready-to-Run/E-Curve/8362_-_Street_Fire_Chevrolet_V8_GM_HEI_Distributor.aspx) or This Distributor (http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Chevrolet/Ready-to-Run/E-Curve/8365_-_GM_HEI_Billet_Distributor.aspx) ?

ARP engine bolt kit #534-9701 ... you already spec'ed this. Looks OK to me.
Cometic Head Gaskets #C5877-030
Fel Pro Intake Gaskets #1205
Fel Pro Exhaust Gaskets #1205
Fel Pro Valve Cover Gaskets #1602
Fel Pro Oil Pan Gasket #1803 ... confirm this fits your block !
Fel Pro Engine Completion Gasket kit #2702

I think that's it ... except stuff like plugs, oil, filter, belts, hoses, etc.

[pro86tourn]

Thanks for the list ! I added it all up using jegs/summit for pricing looks to be $4,090.95 - oil, plugs, belts, machining, push rods, tax, ect.. pricy little 327!

The distributor i have currently is the 8362 (street fire) would buying the MSD ignition box be worth the cost? and will it work with that dizzy.

As far as the cam goes few questions..requires thrust button and wear plate. Are they included in the CL kit.

I think we have about covered all the angles. If i am missing anything, or you know of cheaper places to source parts anyone feel free to chime in!

so now the question is. all said and done to get this baby running will probably push $5k. is it worth it in your opinion Ron, or should i go another route? bang for your buck i dont want to cheap out i want to get good quality parts and i think this list demonstrates that but also cost is always in everyones mind! maybe crate is the better option?

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks for the list ! I added it all up using jegs/summit for pricing looks to be $4,090.95 - oil, plugs, belts, machining, push rods, tax, ect.. pricy little 327!

I think it can be done for a little less. Do me a favor, repost your parts list, with prices, and let me see if I can save you some money.


The distributor i have currently is the 8362 (street fire) would buying the MSD ignition box be worth the cost?
Will it make a tick more power? Yes. It is worth it? That's subjective. We don't run them on our 600hp/7200 rpm NASCAR Modified engines. It's not because we don't believe they make more power ... they do ... but MSD amplifier boxes have a high rate of failure, so we don't run them. So, if I were you, I'd pass for now.


and will it work with that dizzy.
Yes. But read above.


As far as the cam goes few questions..requires thrust button and wear plate. Are they included in the CL kit.
You need a "cam button" (thrust button) Comp Cams #200.
The Cloyes timing chain set use a torrington bearing instead of a wear plate & it is included.


I think we have about covered all the angles. If i am missing anything, or you know of cheaper places to source parts anyone feel free to chime in!
Repost your parts list, with prices, and let me see if I can save you some money.


so now the question is. all said and done to get this baby running will probably push $5k.
How did $4,090.95 become $5k?

is it worth it in your opinion Ron, or should i go another route? bang for your buck i dont want to cheap out i want to get good quality parts and i think this list demonstrates that but also cost is always in everyones mind! maybe crate is the better option?

If you can get the package for $3500-$4000, I'd stay this route. If it was truly $5000++, I'd be considering a used LS.

Let me see if I can save you a few bucks on parts first.

[pro86tourn]

Dart Pro1 200 64cc #12321112- $802.14 x 2
Comp Cam & Lifter kit #CL12-433-8 - $714.95
Comp Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers #1604-16 - $319.95
Cloyes Timing Chain #9-3500TX9 - $77.95
Edelbrock RPM air gap #7501 - $234.95
Holley Ultra DP 750(kit) #0-76751BKK - $541.99
Holley Fuel Pump #12-327-13 - $94.95
Moroso Oil Pan #20170 - $99.99
ARP (is this full kit including head bolts?) #534-9701 - $102.99
Intake Gasket #1205 - $14.99
Valve Cover gasket (do you prefer the rubber over cork?) - $11.99
Oil Pan gasket #375-1803 - $12.99
Completion Gaskets #2702 - $19.99

TOTAL - MSD box = $3,851.96

I said closer to 5k because i included the MSD box, then factor in tax, shipping, machine costs of the heads, oil, plugs ect ect ect...

if theres anything im missing. and if anyone else has an opinion or thinks im crazy please chime in haha.

thanks again Ron i cant thank you enough

[Ron Sutton]

Dart Pro1 200 64cc #12321112- $802.14 x 2 Actual part# is 11321112P
Comp Cam & Lifter kit #CL12-433-8 - $714.95
Comp Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers #1604-16 - $319.95
Cloyes Timing Chain #9-3500TX9 - $77.95
Edelbrock RPM air gap #7501 - $234.95
Holley Ultra DP 750(kit) #0-76751BKK - $541.99 I recommend #0-76750BK with the electric choke
Holley Fuel Pump #12-327-13 - $94.95
Moroso Oil Pan #20170 - $99.99
ARP (is this full kit including head bolts?) #534-9701 - $102.99
Intake Gasket #1205 - $14.99
Valve Cover gasket (do you prefer the rubber over cork?) - $11.99 Yes, because you'll R&R them several times at first.
Oil Pan gasket #375-1803 - $12.99
Completion Gaskets #2702 - $19.99

TOTAL - MSD box = $3,851.96

I said closer to 5k because i included the MSD box, then factor in tax, shipping, machine costs of the heads, oil, plugs ect ect ect...

if theres anything im missing. and if anyone else has an opinion or thinks im crazy please chime in haha.

thanks again Ron i cant thank you enough[/QUOTE]

That all looks about right.

[Mr_Roboto]

As mentioned, the neoprene VC gaskets are awesome and definitely worth the few extra bucks. Second, I'd keep an eye out for the intake. I've seen em come up for 100-150 on Chicago Craigslist pretty often. You may be able to shave $100 or so there.

This is a cool build, you should dyno it when done and see how close it comes out. I'd probably consider adding a tuning kit for the carb in with your costs too. Even though carbs tend to work well out of the box, I'd think you could probably find some power in tweaking it. It's a Holley so 50-100 bucks should be able to get you one.

[Scott Parkhurst]

The 500 hp number seems to be the scary/expensive point, but we have to remember we're talking about a N/A 327 here!

With a package similar to Ron's suggested "#1 Street" setup, I made 545hp with my SBC. But...it's a 383! Cubes are free horsepower, and smaller engines have to work harder to make the same power. My 383 also made 500 ft-lbs, which makes it a great street engine ahead of a stickshift trans.

Ron's advice is all solid!

[cactuss4]

Your goals need to be a little more clear ... and the combination more realistic. You can't build the most power from 327 cubic inches & ask it to run good from idle up. Those goals conflict. All engine, suspension, car, (life) combinations are a compromise.

Let me ask it this way ... which of the following scenarios best fits your wishes?

a. 300Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from idle to 4500 rpm. Peak torque around 2500 rpm.
b. 325Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3000 rpm.
c. 350Hp / 340# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3500 rpm.
d. 385Hp / 350# Torque with optimum operating range from 2500 to 6000 rpm. Peak torque around 4000 rpm.
e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.
f. 740Hp / 500# torque with optimum operating range from 6000 to 8500 rpm. Peak torque around 7000 rpm. :yum:

* All of these combinations will rev higher but best power is in the range outlined.
** As you move up in power combo & operating range, low rpm torque & fuel efficiency reduce.

The key here is deciding what best fits your personal wants & needs. Let me know. I'm glad to help you work out a good combo.


Ron Sutton

F is with Turbo I imagine?!: ) hahahaha I pick F, but wait, let's add a supercharger so that we can get torque off the line as well, so do a tri-charger, supercharger plus twin turbo's!! comp ratio under 9:1, run on pump, ya I like it.

tory

[Ron Sutton]

The 500 hp number seems to be the scary/expensive point, but we have to remember we're talking about a N/A 327 here!

With a package similar to Ron's suggested "#1 Street" setup, I made 545hp with my SBC. But...it's a 383! Cubes are free horsepower, and smaller engines have to work harder to make the same power. My 383 also made 500 ft-lbs, which makes it a great street engine ahead of a stickshift trans.

Ron's advice is all solid!

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the good words.

Would you mind sharing with us what is similar & different about your sweet 383" ... besides the stroke?

[Ron Sutton]

F is with Turbo I imagine?!: ) hahahaha I pick F, but wait, let's add a supercharger so that we can get torque off the line as well, so do a tri-charger, supercharger plus twin turbo's!! comp ratio under 9:1, run on pump, ya I like it.

tory

Hey Tory,

"F" is a high port engine like we'd build for oval or road course racing ... if 327" was our cubic inch limit.

But I threw it in the options just for spice. :)

[Scott Parkhurst]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the good words.

Would you mind sharing with us what is similar & different about your sweet 383" ... besides the stroke?


Sure thing!

Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer Airgap
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-5/8” stepping up to 1-3/4” tube diameter & 32-34” length


I run AFR 210 heads with CNC finishing. They are too much for a 327 but just fine on a 383. The Air Gap is the finest dual-plane intake I've ever worked with, and makes power all the way to 6500 (my redline) and gives up nothing to a single plane with the nitrous plate setup I have (Wilson Pro Flow). It's civilized enough to maintain 1500 rpm in overdrive, helping to deliver more than 20 mpg on the freeway.

My 750cfm Holley is one of their new "Ultra" versions.

My headers are Doug's Tri-Ys - still one of the best all-around designs out there...and lots of ground clearance too.

I don't use hydraulic rollers on performance builds- the latest solid roller lifter designs are plenty durable for street use. I like the extra power and don't mind the occasional maintenance.

I'd aim for a bit higher redline on a short stroke 327....closer to 7500. That would require a nice valvetrain...I'd suggest one of the good bolt-on shaft rocker setups out there. I run Crane's version and it's great.

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks for the info. Take care.

.

[uxojerry]

You may be able to find various used top ends in the classified section of racing junk and yellow bullet at a steep discount. I would plan on buying heads a little big for a 327 but acceptable on a 377/383. That way your top end allows room to grow. A year down the road you would have the ability to redo the bottom end to 377/383 and have all the hp you may want. If the Dart heads in your plan have enough meat in them, they can be ported later for a 377/383. If you eventually did the 383 with good quality parts, the next step would be to add an after market block with larger bores and go to a 421. Once you get to 421, then it's time to leave 23 degree heads behind.

Contrary to popular belief the SBC is not dead. Im redoing my SBC 427 top end for 700hp, and room to grow to 440ci. There are SBC 421 pump gas crate motors rated at 775hp, and about the same price as a high end, big cube LSX. For SBC's, Nascar tech feeds drag racing tech, which feeds hot rod tech.

These engines are not superior to an LS motor. I dont want to offend anyone. For high tech power delivery, an LS is superior. The snarl of a built SBC, or the roar of a BBC are still relevant, lol.

[Corey R.]

Hi Ron -

I have re-read this thread a few times now. You have offered solid advice. I also have a 327 that is making a loud ticking noise, and if it is feasible, I would like to use this part combination. I Differ from Pro86, since I may need more engine work. I have not yet torn into the engine to see what exactly is wrong. I'll need to get a good idea on how much damage the engine has, and whether it is worth saving or scraping completely. If it is ok with you, I will revisit this thread to ask for advice from you.

Here is my car. My mother bought it brand new in the summer 1969.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/9-1.jpg

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Ron -

I have re-read this thread a few times now. You have offered solid advice. I also have a 327 that is making a loud ticking noise, and if it is feasible, I would like to use this part combination. I Differ from Pro86, since I may need more engine work. I have not yet torn into the engine to see what exactly is wrong. I'll need to get a good idea on how much damage the engine has, and whether it is worth saving or scraping completely. If it is ok with you, I will revisit this thread to ask for advice from you.

Here is my car. My mother bought it brand new in the summer 1969.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/9-1.jpg


Man, that is a sweet car.

I'd be happy to offer advice. Go ahead & list specs on the engine now ... plus details on car, trans, rear gear ... and how you plan to use it. OK?

.

[Corey R.]

You got it! Give me a little time to type up something coherent. :)

[Corey R.]

Hi Ron -

I am mulling my options on which direction to take the car. The car is equipped with a stock 1967 327 out of an impala, M20 and a 3.73 rear. The car currently has a Edelbrock Performer intake and 1.94 camel hump heads. I do not know what size journals the crank has.

Some of the ideas in my head are:

- Rebuild the 327 into a nice 331 with newer heads like the Dart Pro1 heads you mentioned(dependent on how much internal damage there is)
- Purchase a crate engine. Something from the zz4 family? Either a long block, or a short block and use the Dart heads.
- LS/T56 conversion combo.

The car is mainly a street cruiser, and doesn't see any track time. If I had to go with one of your options from your earlier post, I would select:


e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.

[chevnut55]

Go with the 327, I had the same hard decision on my 69 Camaro , I decided to go with the ls1 .
yes the ls1 can make more power easy, its lighter and great fuel milage.
But the money I spent on the swap could have went to a gas fund, it took 2 years non stop instead of 2 weeks, it still does not run wright and does not look anywhere as good as my old 327 did..it lost some of the muscle car look and feel.
If I did not have so much into it and so many things changed in the swap..headers, mounts, rad, tank, holes for wires everywhere, computers..etc and etc, I would order a new crate 327 and a o/d trans.
Also my budget was suppose to be $5k for a new drivetrain and the sbc would have met the swap cost me 3 times that and Im still throwing money at tuners.
either way its a great car and you can loose.

[Corey R.]

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely take that into consideration. Along with the info Ron supplies, I think I should also get a hold of engine software to help with a design if I decide to rebuild the 327. Although a rebuild might be a hard sell when I can pick up a GMPP zz4 350 short block for $2400 and its ready to go.

[chevnut55]

That's what I had witten down to order and a new 700r4 along with a fast or holly efi system. never mind the cost I could have saved but the stress from problems alone I could have lived another 10 years.

[Ron Sutton]

Chevnut55 gave a great example of a bad engine swap experience. He isn't the only one, as several guys have made LS swaps .... not got the programming right ... and were very frustrated. Here is a recent example (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?100637-I-give-up-either-putting-a-carb-on-the-ls1-or-changing-back-to-old-SBC-700r4).

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I take a broader view. I'll outline my thoughts of pros & cons and maybe that clarifies things better & helps you make your decision that fits your situation best.

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The SBC is older technology. The 23° valve angle & port shape haven't changed much since 1955 ... almost 60 years. The heads flow less air than modern designs because the port shape was designed for packaging, not power. The low intake port goes up over a hump, then makes a sharp turn down into the valve. We can make them flow a little more without enlarging the port ... but to make them flow significantly better, we have to run bigger ports. (This is true of all heads) That's where you see "runner sizes" in CC's come into play ... stock in the 135-160cc range ... with larger ports measuring from 180-290cc in volume.

Cylinder port basics:
When you make any port flow more ... by changing it's shape, angle, contours, surface, etc ... without increasing the port cross section area (height and/or width) ... you are increasing velocity. When you make any port flow more ... by increasing it's cross section area (height and/or width of the port) ... you are reducing velocity. When we build more power in the SBC platform, it's harder to achieve the same levels of fuel efficiency as the LS partly because of this.

Yes, for big bucks you can buy aftermarket race only heads & intake with large, raised ports & valve angles from 9° to 18° to achieve "some" of what is built into the LS. Most of these head & intake combos start around $5000 & go up. Without going to aftermarket high port/low valve angle race heads, you can still build great power in a standard SBC platform. Racers & Hot Rodders have been doing so for ... well .. almost 60 years.

The SBC is the best supported engine platform of all time, with a gazillion fully developed parts from manufacturers. Parts are inexpensive, plentiful & 99% of engine shops know how to build them. Factory aluminum blocks are not plentiful, so aftermarket versions are very expensive. Factory iron blocks are good for 400hp in thin cast versions ... 600hp in thick cast versions. Aftermarket iron blocks to handle 700-1000+hp are available from from Dart, RHS & World products

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The LS is modern technology. The cylinder head port, valve angle & chamber design are right out of modern race technology. The heads flow more air not because the port is bigger ... which would lose some velocity if it was ... but because the port is raised significantly enough to have a straighter entry to the back side of the valve. The valve train design, internal water cooling, firing order & block design are all improved over the older SBC design. Basically, every solution that racers & engineers came up with over the years racing the SBC went into the design of the LS.

This is part of why these engines make more power ... easily ... and still achieve good fuel mileage. The production LS aluminum block is very durable well into the 600+ hp range. The iron block can handle more & the LSX & RHS iron blocks are solid platforms to build 800-1200hp.

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As with any engine platform, the fuel & timing curves are key to optimizing power & fuel efficiency. Modern technology has given us options & improvements for how we achieve this.

Obviously SBC's were designed with a distributor to "distribute" the spark. The challenge with weights & springs ... is the timing curve is linear ... and that's not optimum for power or fuel efficiency. We can tune on the advance curve with weights & springs to find the best compromise ... add on electronic band aids ... replace it with an electronic controlled advance unit ... or change it out altogether to a fully computerized ignition, which can be tuned to exactly what the engine needs for optimum power & fuel efficiency. As we know LS engines start with a fully computerized ignition & can't go backwards. Why would you want to?

Carb or EFI ... are options with either engine platform. Some guys think carburetors are complicated. Some guys think EFI is complicated. Some of us are more familiar ... and therefore more comfortable with one or the other. In my early days as a young racer, when I found the key to power was carb & ignition tuning, I became a student of both until I mastered them. I can tune a carb as well as anyone. When I first entered a series running mechanical fuel injection, I had a steep learning curve, but got it mastered with time, learning, testing, etc.

With carbs & mechanical fuel injection, they naturally want to be linear, which is not optimum. So we're tuning & tweaking them in various ways to adjust the fuel curve "towards" optimum ... in sections of the rpm range & trying to best deal with changes in throttle position. But "close" & "good compromise" is about all these are capable of. With EFI ... if we have the correct flowing nozzles ... we can simply program any fuel curve we want. I mean ANY. We can make the A/F ratio exactly what the engine needs to be optimum at every rpm point & every condition.

With a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, we can tune either to make optimum power at a specific rpm ... equal to what is achievable with Electronic Fuel Injection. EFI doesn't make more peak power. But these mechanical fuel mixers are not capable of achieving optimum power at every point like a good EFI system. Simply put, we can achieve more power under the total operating curve with EFI ... and better mileage too.

If you're building from scratch ... buying a carb is much cheaper than an EFI system. If you're buying a used take out LS engine & keeping the factory injection, the cost is built in. You just need a good controller. If you're going for much bigger power than the stock EFI is capable of ... then you'll be buying parts or a complete new system. With an LS ... even if you go carbureted ... you still need an ignition controller.

The last points are more personal. Which fuel mixing option fits your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals.

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I think engine choices are personal too ... and should take into account your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals. Some guys want to build an engine either themselves or through a shop. Others want to buy an engine ready to go. That's a personal choice.

If you're doing a low-mileage take out ... we're obviously talking LS platform ... you can get impressive power, technology, drivability, fuel mileage, etc at a bargain price. How much is dependent on the gem you found.

When you doing an engine (or engine & trans) swap ... always take into account ALL you have to change ... headers, exhaust, engine & trans mounts, driveshaft mods, belts, plumbing, wiring, alternator, etc, etc ... and potentially firewall and/or trans tunnel mods. There is more time & money in a change over than most plan for.

When you're building a car from scratch that doesn't have an existing engine &peripheral parts ... you have a clean slate. So then it comes back to budget, personal preference, goals, etc.

If you're building a new engine from scratch, using all new parts, the LS platform can be more spendy than an SBC. Of course you can pour crazy amounts of money into any build. If you're re-building an engine using existing parts ... it depends on what you already own. You will get more power, drivability & fuel mileage … for your buck … with the LS platform.

If you're buying a "crate engine" or "ready to run engine" from one of the zillion sources ... there are good & bad choices in both traditional SBC & modern LS based platforms. You have GM, many reputable engine shops & a few corner cutting engine shops ... all offering lots of choices.

If you can get the power you want, in an affordable SBC package ... and this achieves your goals .... why not? On the other hand, if your power goals are higher, want optimum drivability & fuel mileage ... and can justify the changeover time & costs ... go that way. The future is LS engines. But today you have choices.

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In 2011, I worked out a 400-410" SBC combination that made 730hp & 600# of torque with 23° heads with a 4-barrel. When we raced this in our NASCAR Modifieds with a 2-barrel (per rules) and it made 597hp & 510# torque. It took a lot testing & development. It's a great package, powerful, responsive & reliable. I run a lot of Dart stuff, because Richard Maskin is one of the sharpest engine builders I know of & his stuff is always top notch. This 400-410" uses 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle ... and an aggressive Comp Cams roller grind & valvetrain. But fuel mileage ? Hmmmm ... not good.

I have scheduled development of a mean street/track warrior LS based package & expect 820hp with "decent" fuel mileage. The LS7 port style & 12° valve angle heads we'll use have a similar cross section & flow 379cfm of air at .600" valve lift. The 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle flow 309cfm at .700". That, my friends, is a HUGE difference. We're able to achieve much more power with a much less aggressive cam profile ... and have a more drivable package with increased fuel mileage ... with that kind of cylinder head advantage.

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As we all know ... just a short time after the original SBC came out ... hot rodders were putting it all kinds of different cars. They were bolting on parts to increase power. Engine shops were building them to awesome power for the time period. Manufacturers started developing parts to build higher power levels. The LS is the next "small block Chevy." It's like the son that paid attention and learned all that the father taught it. Now is its time. Dad can hang around ... and occasionally give "the boy" a run for his money ... but the writing is on the wall.

Personally ... I am nostalgic about people, places & style ... not technology. Talking to, or just remembering, good friends & loved ones is a feel good moment. Revisiting places I've been before brings back fond memories. I love the look & style of older cars. But if I was nostalgic for old technology ... I'd be on my 286 computer, on dial up connection or no internet at all, no smart phone, no gps, waiting at the pharmacy for my photos to process. But that's not me.

Some guys & gals want their hot rod to take them back to a simpler time where none of these high tech gadgets existed ... even if it's only for a few hours at a time. That's cool too. One thing I love about hot rodding is we all get to make our own choices, for our own reasons. Now you simply have more to choose from.

[Thephranc]

Ron, is it safe to say that putting a new 4150 style EFI throttle bodies like FAST, MSD and the like that are self learning you can achieve near the drive-ability of the LS motors and get much better MPG over a carb? Do you think the cost of these systems is worth it over a swap?

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, is it safe to say that putting a new 4150 style EFI throttle bodies like FAST, MSD and the like that are self learning you can achieve near the drive-ability of the LS motors and get much better MPG over a carb? Do you think the cost of these systems is worth it over a swap?

Yes ... the EFI throttle bodies like FAST, MSD & Holley offer will improve the power, driveability & fuel mileage of a SBC over a carb.

Comparing it to an LS is difficult, because rarely are we comparing apples to apples.

If we have two similar engines ... an LS & SBC ... built as identical as possible (bore, stroke, cam profiles, port cross section for velocity & EFI systems) ... the two engines would have similar driveability ... but very different power levels. The LS would idle better ... have similar initial throttle "response" but more torque ... and build more power all the way up the rpm range & have a higher redline before power drops off, as the valve springs were capable.

If we have two different engines ... an LS & SBC ... that both build Xxx HP ... with the similar cubic inches, bore & stroke ... The SBC would require much bigger port cross section (height and/or width) & more aggressive camshaft to achieve that same power number. The larger port will have less velocity down in the lower rpm range, making it less responsive with lower torque numbers. The larger duration camshaft will do the same.

To build that power level in an SBC, we're making sacrifices to the low end power, drivability & fuel mileage. The LS engine can achieve the same power ... with a smaller port cross section & less aggressive camshaft ... keeping the low rpm air velocity up for better mileage, responsiveness & torque.

Make sense?


I can't say if it worth the money or not ... because that is a personal decision. If a person can afford the EFI ... and they get it tuned right ... they'll surely enjoy it.

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Guys,

I'm going riding quads with my girls now ... so I'll catch up with everyone when I get back Monday.

Take care all !!! :cheers:

[Corey R.]

Excellent information in here. Thanks for your input Ron.

[Ron Sutton]

Excellent information in here. Thanks for your input Ron.


You're welcome. Do you have more questions? Are you leaning towards a crate or building an engine?

I'm back from my quad trip, so I can answer questions if you have any.

We went on an epic 7-1/2 hour quad ride up several mountains in the Sierra Mountains in Nevada & California. From 7000' to 11,700' through a wide variety of rough terrain, rocks, creeks, broken shale. My wife flipped over once, but was OK. She's a sweet, but tough gal. We saw breath taking scenery on several mountaintops looking out over the range, went partway into old gold mines that were caved in, rock & wood cabins where miners lived. We were all worn out from the ride.

[Corey R.]

You're welcome. Do you have more questions? Are you leaning towards a crate or building an engine?

I'm back from my quad trip, so I can answer questions if you have any.

We went on an epic 7-1/2 hour quad ride up several mountains in the Sierra Mountains in Nevada & California. From 7000' to 11,700' through a wide variety of rough terrain, rocks, creeks, broken shale. My wife flipped over once, but was OK. She's a sweet, but tough gal. We saw breath taking scenery on several mountaintops looking out over the range, went partway into old gold mines that were caved in, rock & wood cabins where miners lived. We were all worn out from the ride.




That sounds like an awesome trip, Ron. I'm glad you had a good time with the Misses!

I think the first thing I need to do is pull the engine and see how much damage there actually is to the engine. I will need to see what the walls and crank look like. Once I figure out where it stands, I can look into options.

It will be a few months before I can revisit this thread. I am in the middle of building a new home and dealing with a sick family member. Even though this is not my thread, I'll come back and update it once I have it apart.

Thanks Ron.

[Ron Sutton]

That sounds like an awesome trip, Ron. I'm glad you had a good time with the Misses!

I think the first thing I need to do is pull the engine and see how much damage there actually is to the engine. I will need to see what the walls and crank look like. Once I figure out where it stands, I can look into options.

It will be a few months before I can revisit this thread. I am in the middle of building a new home and dealing with a sick family member. Even though this is not my thread, I'll come back and update it once I have it apart.

Thanks Ron.

Understood. Take care of your family. Talk to you later.

.

[pro86tourn]

Hi guys!

wow 2013! Well to give an update my life went through a million changes lost a job got a new great job bought a new house, cars/bikes and the monte ended up never getting out of storage.

I went to pay the fees where the car is stored the past weekend as my mission is to have the car back on the road this spring. When i showed up from sitting (although) concrete floor, moisture has certainly damaged the perfect rust free car which really upsets me. I went through this post a few times and again I am back to with the state of the engine being opened and exposed this long the short block will need to be sent out to be cleaned up. maybe even a new rotating assembly to complement Ron's build suggestions.... OR many years later it seems may be simpler to go with a carbed 6.0 LS

Its very sad life gets in the way sometimes but I cant allow the car to stay stagnant much longer.

Im glad to be back guys! I have been enjoying my new gt350 at many track events locally but new cars dont have the same emotional connection to the old school stuff! Need this monte back on the road!