C6 - zo6 caliper questions

[BADDRIDE II]

Does anyone have any input on the following (from a first hand experience standpoint on these calipers either street or track) Thanks!

(1) Do you prefer the "pucks" or "1 piece pads" and why?

(2) Any other issues with the calipers themselves

(3) Adequit for "Pro Tour" style use and abuse (street & road course)?

Thanks for ALL input.

[wiedemab]

I don't have any first hand experience with them, but I've overheard several conversations at track days where people are almost always (from my experience) using the 1 piece pads. I'm not entirely sure if it is a an ease of changing thing or what. I know that doesn't help much, but I'm sure some others will chime in with better more detailed input.

[TheJDMan]

No first hand experience but I have the three piece Hawk Ceramic pads for street only becasue I was not aware of the one piece at the time I purchased my pads. Once I get to the point where I am ready to attend some track days I would probably use the one piece becasue they provide more surface area according to the reading I have done on some of the Corvette sites. Hawk makes both styles in all of their standard compounds. The one piece are just a bit more price wise and if you unbolt the caliper and remove it from the rotor the one piece should be easier to change becasue you only have to hold two pads in place instead of six.

[Apogee]

Just my $.02, but the 1-piece pads help make up for one of the short falls of the PBR M-Series calipers (C6 Z06/Grand Sport) and that is the relatively small pad volume for such a large caliper. The rear volume with the padlets is respectable, however the front volume is actually about the same as the 2-piston C5/C6 floating calipers. While those calipers have very good pad volumes for their size, the fact that the C6 Z06 caliper is basically 2.5 inches larger, that makes it's pad volume less than other comparably sized calipers. What that means in use is that your pads won't last as long and they'll generally run hotter...I've also found them to be slightly dustier, possibly from the additional leading edges, but I'm not sure. The 1-piece pads increase the pad volume, run cooler and last longer since there's more material there. They should be more prone to pad taper since the caliper piston bores are not staggered, however we have not generally found that to be the case.

If you have the anti-rattle springs installed, the pad(let)s should more or less hold themselves in place, regardless of configuration.

Tobin
KORE3

[LSxChevelle]

I talked with a friend who just bought a 2011 Z06... Stock pads had the worst brake dust he had seen. Switched to 1 piece ceramics and loves them. Minimal dust as well as improved braking.

[BADDRIDE II]

ALL really helpful input.....seams that the 1 piece pad may be the way to go? I still am a little confused, I would of thought the "pucks" would have kept the rotor cooler due to the smaller pad volume, and the spacing between the pucks would allow for additional cooling on the rotor...just a guess though?

[MonzaRacer]

Its pad area you have to worry about, smaller pad, less area for heat transfer.

[BADDRIDE II]

Its pad area you have to worry about, smaller pad, less area for heat transfer.

So you are in favor of the "pucks"?

[BADDRIDE II]

Does'nt John Parsons track his C6 ZO6, wonder if he still runs stock calipers and what type pads he runs? John if your listening....I sure could use your input on this subject. Which do you prefer....pads/padlets, and how do the calipers themselves seem to be holding up? Thanks.

[MonzaRacer]

So you are in favor of the "pucks"?

Ok disc brakes 101:
In the beginning disc brakes were designed to stop huge airplanes from high speeds, but price,size,etc left them out of range of automobile use. tucker and a few others dipped into using them mainstream as smaller units came out.
Biggest issue was compounds and characteristics, who cares if plane had squeaky brakes, as long as it didnt fall out of sky or hit a wall all was ok.
So as brake manufacturers found large cars with huge 15 to 25 lb rotors and asbestos pads worked well in most cases, as the makers of cars tried to package more brake in smaller place on lighter cars, they had wear issues, and started "doping" pads with metal to increase heat rejection capabilities, see the pads have to radiate and hold heat as well as the cast iron rotor, rotors do more cooling as they move and have air moving through them. But if you concentrate more heat in smaller object, especially one held together with high heat resins, as in asbestos pads, they cook and burn.
So the developed metallic pads but rotors didnt last in testing and noise was horrendous so they moved to SEMI-metallic pads and as the iron kept being removed from the rotor more heat had to held in pads till it cooled without degradation.
Biggest issue pad makers had were ability to use specific high heat metallic pads due to make up of them.
As encapsulation and processing got better pads get better.
Now to go back to early 70s when weight started becoming an issue they found that if the newer pads which are a combination of sintering/soldering/resin curing (this came from a Wagner tech I talked to many years ago at a symposium for technicians on brakes and how to service them) and if they simply semi-cured the pads they had less dust, noise and wear issues as the pads and rotors, if properly machined, MATED. The rotor in a raw finish has microscopic amounts of the pads embedded into the surface and allows the pads and rotors to mate, similar to piston rings on a fresh hone job. Used to be people would only cut a rough cut on first semi met pads so they mated better and squeaked less till they mated. some techs got plan down. But times they are a changin'.
Also as compounds and pads get more complex it has been found that a finer RA finish, non-directionally ground or finished NOW make a better seat time on pads and rotors.
So if we have a 1 sq in pad it can take X amount of heat, if we have a 2sq in pad it will take an exponentially higher amount as the heat is spread over twice the surface AND has twice or more the holding surface, bonding surface and heat radiation surface.
so I like larger pad idea, in competition I would say a slotted rotor, with properly designed rotor fin direction, and properly ducted cooling ducts, the brakes should see a better life span under abuse.
Also to make it simple if we give you a 1 in ball bearing and a 4 in ball bearing which will take more heat before melting?
Simple huh? try keeping all the neat little fact about cars and service I learn, AND I even come up with my own ideas that I test. hope this wasnt too complicated and understandable. And hope you learned something.
Also dont forget to use high heat silicone BRAKE lube on all contact surfaces EXCEPT the pad face and rotor, this will silence a lot of your squeal issues. Loc-tite (red)on caliper bracket bolts, and generally nothing on caliper to bracket bolts or use only blue. Only time its not feasible and lock wire make better sense is if you are removing things a lot.
So now we have 5 lb rotors and still stop 3000+lb cars, and way back in the day we had 15 to 25 lb rotors stopping 3500-5000Lb cars, where does the heat go? Pads.

[SLO_Z28]

The Carbotech AX6 one piece pads are a great upgrade over the factory stuff. As Tobin stated, the C6Z06 calipers are an inherently bad design. If you have the money, the PFC and Brake Man calipers are MUCH better than the OEM stuff.

[BADDRIDE II]

Wow Lee, thats a lot of info! I will change your vote to "larger pads". Thanks for taking the time to explain

[BADDRIDE II]

James, thanks for your input on the specific pad recommendation. I will probably be taking that advice as the other options are out of my range right now. Maybe I will keep saving....

[The WidowMaker]

i bought the ax6's one piece as well after tons of stressing over noise. cars a ways away, but i hope i dont regret them.

[Apogee]

...As Tobin stated, the C6Z06 calipers are an inherently bad design. If you have the money, the PFC and Brake Man calipers are MUCH better than the OEM stuff.

Quick clarification, but I did not say the C6 Z06 calipers were an inherently bad design, just that it would be fair to say that for such a large monoblock caliper, the OE padlet design has some shortcomings as explained in my previous post. Most components have pros and cons and the C6 Z06 calipers are no different...one of the many pros though being that the aftermarket has been quite responsive to most cons with respect to Corvette components, hence the 1-piece pad options now available.

James, what's interesting about your post is that you're touting PFC (and Brake Man) as the do-all, end-all of the caliper technology arguement, and while I agree that they both offer some very well engineered products, were you aware that PFC has been moving towards a pad-let design on several of their new caliper applications? Per a discussion with them at SEMA this year, they've mostly only rolled them out in rear applications thus far, but I was told that fronts were designed and on the way. Their new(ish) caliper design uses internal bosses with stainless steel shims inside the caliper bodies as abutment surfaces for the pads, thus eliminating some of the weight associated with steel pins like in the PBR M-series calipers, but the idea and perceived benefits are basically the same. Who knows, maybe that little tweak of the design got them around any pesky patents PBR held as well, if they had any.

Tobin
KORE3

[SLO_Z28]

PFC is an economy bolt in solution to the problem of Z06 calipers being bad. Brake man is on a whole different level, and shouldn't be compared to any of these companys.

Did you read Warrens' SAE paper about how all monoblock calipers are inherently bad designs?

[BADDRIDE II]

James, other than the original padlet volume being slightly inadequit on the ZO6 front caliper (of which sounds like was solved with the 1 piece pad replacement for at least a majority of users), are you saying the caliper itself is a problem?

I think I had came across the article you are referring to on monoblock designs a while back, and if I remember correctly it basically states monoblock designs flex, and are cheaper to manufacture so they choose to market as the best? I tend to agree with this, but only under what I would consider to be EXTREME conditions. I did research a little over on Corvette type forums to see what good/bad was being tossed around on the ZO6/PBR monoblocks and found that most "dedicated race cars" are opting for higher end caliper upgrades....BUT, MOST are finding ZO6 caliper to be fine with the only REAL issue under serious race conditions being the aluminum pistons, of which there are stainless replacements being offered. I have yet to find anyone really complaining of "flex"being an issue (not that it does not exist though).

As Tobin said, the ZO6 caliper body themselves are fairly large which I would think is probably helping fight flex and disapate heat. It is probably those elite few real racers that do compete hard enough to distort an aluminum piston and probably find it pointless to outfit the stock caliper with stainless replacements and just choose to bite the bullet and upgrade to a real race caliper?

It is good to hear Tobin clarify that it was really only pad volume that concearned him for our type cars. I do like OE style stuff when it comes to consumables like brake pads. I am sure the padlets or pads can be had at many common auto parts stores.

Now if I were building a purpose built "race car" for road courses only....I do REALLY like the Brakeman concept. There is NO doubt in my mind that by using a steel "bridge", that this gives calipers a whole new level of stiffness that directly contributes to minimal or zero flex.

I think my dream caliper would consist of a Brakeman steel bridge type caliper with larger ZO6 type padlets, and stainless/or Titanium pistons!

[SLO_Z28]

Yes, the reason GM has monoblocks on the Z06 is because its cheaper than the older floating calipers, the engineers know its MUCH worse, and a inherently bad design, but there is a ton of profit in it(and thats ultimately what the OE market is about).

One thing to consider in a 10/10ths application is caliper drag as well, the padlet design contributes significantly to pad drag. The slow release of the caliper causes the braking temperatures to rise higher than they should, and slows weight transfer and attitude change pre-apex. With the faster releasing caliper like Brake Man you have much more mid corner control, which can mean the difference between needing a new fender or not when you're wheel to wheel.

If you're not driving 10/10ths then the Z06 calipers are not only bad for you, they're slowing you down. The pads wont be able to get up to temperature fast enough, and the unsprung weight will slow the suspensions response, compliance, increase steering effort, and reduce steering feel. Show touring at its best.

[BADDRIDE II]

Wow James, were you beat with a Monoblock as a child? LOL!

Your theories on Monoblocks should get some interesting comments from the BAER, BREMBO, AP RACING, ALCON, ETC. seats!

Just picking your brain:

(1) If your thoery of OE being more concerned with profit than function/performance, why did they only outfit the ZO6/Grand Sport with them....would'nt they have made a lot more money by putting them on the base models?

(2) If the Corvette base model type "floating design" is superior to that of Monoblocks......why do the top race teams not use this type design...as you know the top race teams are not concerned with profit?


I know a LOT of folks on here run the Base Model Corvette "floating design".....I am not bashing it in ANY way as I know they are very effective for most who run. I just find it hard to believe that Chevy tried to save a few bucks on the ZO6 & ZR1 by outfitting them with Monoblocks. Aside from the lack of pad volume with the "padlets", and given the fact that the replacement 1 piece pad solves this. It is hard for me to think this is a bad caliper considering its price,availability,serviceability. I dont know about you but it seams to keep getting harder and harder to get products in a timely manor from aftermarket brake companies and am just exploring some more readily available parts.

Does anybody know what the two pad volumes are for the ZO6 1 piece pad vs the Baer Mono that seams to be very effective for most in our sport...maybe Tobin?

[TheJDMan]

PFC is an economy bolt in solution to the problem of Z06 calipers being bad. Brake man is on a whole different level, and shouldn't be compared to any of these companys.

Did you read Warrens' SAE paper about how all monoblock calipers are inherently bad designs?

Do you have a link to this paper? I would like to read it.