four banger for the future?!

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Well, with the gas prices going up as they always do by world events and speculators, it got me to start thinking..its probably not the most economically or environmentally friendly thing to be driving a car with a 6.7L engine and huge overlap cam..I only drive under 5 miles a day now so its not a huge deal, but later in life when i move, graduate, have to commute to my job...etc i cant rely on the fact that gas will be under $4 a gallon.

Ive never driven a new car, other than my mommas car. I dont want to sacrifice the mechanical, sturdy feel, or the lines of a classic car for a plasticey, fuel efficient box. I also want whatever ill be driving to be able to get out of its own way. Ive heard LS camaros/novas can get pretty good mileage (25ish mpg), but i want great mileage, especially in the city. The only way to do this is to downsize the displacement.

So, i was reading the build thread of 'Green Bean' and it got me to thinking/researching: old novas/darts/mustangs can still be bought for under $2000, Ecotec engines are around $600. According to GM performance the crank and block can handle 500hp (add studs, other 'simple, cheap' stuff, etc..). A nice (stripped down, lightweight) classic car with a 300hp ecotec could be built for under roughly $7000 and get ~25mpg in the city without a huge issue.

Now, I know srt4's are known for handling some power as well, honda guys always praise those little four bangers (that i know even less about)...Obviously to make a lot of power, you have to start forcing a lot of air thru the engine with a lot of gas...

BUT ANYWAYS, what do you think is the best four cylinder overall: fuel efficiency, power potential...etc. I dont care if its a honda, mitsubishi, chevy, ford, dodge...im just daydreaming about the inevitable future of hot rodding...whatre your thoughts?

[Six_Shooter]

I have plans to build a Ford 2.3 with a DOHC head, then adding a turbo, for my GF's Mustang, not saying it'll be the "best", but will be interesting.

I like V6s myself, I've been playing with the GM 60 degree V6 since the mid '90s.

[WS6]

Consider a chevy Cobalt ss with the turbo motor. Those thing will scoot with only a little work done to them. The supercharged ones aren't bad either but the turbo version is better.

[ALLstrokedOUT]

I would be interested in v6's to mess around with..but im thinking of a daily driver that can get 25mpg or better in the city; im not sure a v6 can meet that. I havnt heard much of the ford 2.3's, im gunna have to research them a bit as well... Itd also be cool to turn up the boost and load another tune to mess around with if fuel economy wasnt a concern for that drive home if the particular engine could take the abuse...

[Six_Shooter]

To have both economy AND power, forced induction really is the way to go.

Turbo works very well on small displacement engines, since it uses the exhaust to run the turbo, where as a super will use crank power to run the super.

I have used turbos on a few builds and get great milage with plenty of power.

IIRC the last time I calculated MPG of my 2.8L Nissan straight 6 (30+ year old tech), with the EFI I'm running it was around 20 MPG (driving it with some pizzaz), with more to be gained with some more tuning. I don't have a power figure, but know that it's plenty north of 200 HP, and should be able to get a better figure later this year. A newer V6 with a more efficient design, can easily yield higher milage results. I'm toying with getting a newer V6 that has variable cam timing to see what I can pull from that.

[lnirenberg]

Diesels, outsized torque and tunable for more. 50 state legal--VW turbo 4 banger, MB 6 cyl turbo ( more torque than a 550), BMW 6 cyl turbo, dearly departed VW V10 turbo diesel and the new truck diesels from Ford & GM with 700+ ft/lbs. On a pedestal for me, the fully designed duramax 4500 is (was) the same size as a gas powered small block and would have been (will be?) a perfect fit in an old muscle car with about 550 ft/lbs from the factory. It has been buried since GM went bankrupt. European Ford Ranger diesel that we will not see. diesel, diesel, diesel Did I mention diesels?

[DarkBuddha]

New direct injection turbo Ecoboost from Ford is looking promising. 2012 Focus ST is 247hp and should get 30mpg+. They were able to coax the 300hp 2010 Focus RS to 38mpg: http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Ford-Focus-RS-does-38.5-mpg.html

[demon1515]

this are a couple of the 4 banggers old school Toyota engines i build for drag in the rollers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni_KoLu9U_g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgPzh6cabpc

And a video of another one on the first strat!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0SSR4sz_Ls

By the way guys excuse the spanish, all this was in Puerto Rico home of the fastest imports!

Also i am the one behind the camera all the time!

[ALLstrokedOUT]

That's a pretty wicked sounding 4 cylinder demon1515! Is there anything still stock internally on that Toyota? And the ford focus rs is very impressive too; 38mpg and 305hp from the factory?? ..nothing wrong with that!! I wonder what the near future will bring for tunability and modification of the factory direct injection, if it'll every be something that an aftermarket computer could handle...

[93Polo]

To have both economy AND power, forced induction really is the way to go.

Turbo works very well on small displacement engines, since it uses the exhaust to run the turbo, where as a super will use crank power to run the super.

I have used turbos on a few builds and get great milage with plenty of power.

IIRC the last time I calculated MPG of my 2.8L Nissan straight 6 (30+ year old tech), with the EFI I'm running it was around 20 MPG (driving it with some pizzaz), with more to be gained with some more tuning. I don't have a power figure, but know that it's plenty north of 200 HP, and should be able to get a better figure later this year. A newer V6 with a more efficient design, can easily yield higher milage results. I'm toying with getting a newer V6 that has variable cam timing to see what I can pull from that.
I agree, I have been interested in is a forced induction (maggie or turbo) 4.8 in a daily. A LS6 cam and MP112 should be good for ~400rwhp with a manual trans. My heads and cam LS1 did 31mpg on the hwy with 3.42 gears in a C5 with a ~80mph average speed.

Some of the new motors also have potential.

[JEFFTATE]

I'd like a VW/Audi 2.0 TDI Diesel in my S10 . ( Or the TDI in a different compact sport utility ) as a daily driver .

[Rick K]

find a new mustang v6. 305 hp from the factory and go from there. Gas mileage in a light car should be over 30 mpg.

[6'9"Witha69]

The GM LNF. It's a 2.0 DI Turbo making 260 HP, 260 ftlbs factory. A dealer installed tune (about $600 out the door) makes it a 296 hp monster. More addons = more power. These are available in 2008+ HHR SS, 2009 Cobalt SS, 2007 Pontiac Soltice GXPs and Saturn Sky Redlines.

[demon1515]

That's a pretty wicked sounding 4 cylinder demon1515! Is there anything still stock internally on that Toyota?
Believe it or not, the first one small tire Toyota got the factory crankshaft, mains, head, and rockers, Arias pistons, eagle rods, stainless valves, Isky valve springs, ARP hardware all around,

Jerico trany, Chevy 10m bolt rear end factory suspension on 26x8.5 tire.

We have achieve 5.57 on the 1/8 of mile with a trap speed of 127mph.

On the one with the red valve cover we have been 8.22 1/4 mile @167MPH on 29x11.5 3/4 chassis car!

[sittingonacouch]

I like the Honda 4 cylinders. Go for the B series or the K series. They are reliable, can handle some power if you sleeve the block, HUGE aftermarket support, and great mileage.

[capri v8 driver]

what i miss in this discusion is fuel alternatives. ever tought about liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) or compressed natural gas (CNG) as a alternative to regular fuel?

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Demon1515, Thats pretty impressive; i wouldnt have thought there were that many stock components left on that engine when its making that much power.

The only problem with newer engines though is that they have VVT, not just an 'on/off' vtec, but constantly variable. I read somewhere that the new toyota 4 cylinder intake/exhaust cams can be phased a maximum of 60 degrees from each others initial position. I just started looking into how one would control this outside of a stock car/harness. I am fairly certain the megasquirt III can, but im not 100%
I also never really looked into those fuel alternatives. ive heard of them, but i didnt think they were much more efficient or cheaper than just regular old gasoline..itd be interesting too though

[Six_Shooter]

As far as I know the MS3 by itself can't control the VVT, at least I haven't seen mention of it.

There is a VVT controller available though, DIYautotune.com has them. http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/vvtuner-c-80.html?osCsid=edbbb8e08072954c5046217da4a7ba5e

[demon1515]

VVT would be awesome if you are going to leave the engine as it came from the factory,
But IMO when you are trying to squeeze as much HP out of such an small power plant the changes a VVT does is not that significant and some decide to just disable the system,

I've been there and done that!

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Yea, i went onto DIYautotune, maybe thats what i saw...And i probably would just disable the vvt, i just wasnt sure it was possible in the newer engines (i havnt looked at how the vvt mechanism works, so its just voodoo to me now, but ill look into it later).

[demon1515]

If you replace camshaft like from Brian Crower, they offer some cams that just do not provide for VVTi

By the way what engine is the one you are planning to use? i may help you going in the right direction!

A good choice is getting an engine with a lot of aftermarket support, good big HP choices are:

Honda F22 S2000 engine
Honda K24 CRV engine

Toyota 3SGTE MR2 turbo engine
Toyota 2RZ or 3RZ Tacoma engine

Nissan SR20DET JDM Silvia engine
Nissan KA24DE yea the same engine in your old Nissan hard body P'UP and us 240sx

GM Eco tech Awesome engine to go with

Mitsubishi 4G63 eclipse and Evolution engines

and many others that i cant remember right now but these i just mention right here can be prepped to be a 500+ street engines and very reliable,
Also to remember these power plants will make the HP and torque high in the RPM range some with more grunt than others but talking 500+ street hp it ain't going to be at less than 4500+ RPM's!

[Six_Shooter]

I would keep it, some really nice economy and transitional gains can be found in using the VVT.

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Sadly, this is all just daydreaming rite now. Im still in school for another year for my bachelors degree, and dont need to worry about driving more than five miles a day. Maybe in the next 2 or so years i would begin this project. The motor depends partly on the car i would be putting it in although im not afraid of putting a honda into a chevy, or a dodge...etc as long as it has a turbo..btw, thanks for the info on engines to look for demon1515! As far as the vvt, if i can get some aftermarket board to operate it affordably, id think about keeping it for economy reasons.

[capri v8 driver]

I also never really looked into those fuel alternatives. ive heard of them, but i didnt think they were much more efficient or cheaper than just regular old gasoline..itd be interesting too though

LPG is pretty common here.

there are some drawbacks, like the extra heavy fuel tank, price off the system and lower engery out the fuel, compaired with gasoline, but still much beter than E85.

the positive aspect, price off LPG/CNG is less than gasoline. overhere its more than 50% less, so in terms off milage for the money, its far beter and after a x amount off miles, the LPG/CNG system pays its self back for saved fuel cost.

the octaan rating is much higher than gasoline, ideal for forced induction

and for the environment, LPG/CNG is a much cleaner burning fuel, so less emmisions.

take a look in NY, most cab's there drive on LPG/CNG.

[showa]

Mustang II w/ turbo old school 4 banger..... Unexpected car that has been proven to be able to handle and not look as bad as the picture that comes into everyones mind at first mention..... Shouldn't be too expensive to do....
But then I also like the idea of a turbo air cooled bug decked out like a serious Trans-Am era racer shoulda/coulda looked....
And there is always the great Corvair, I think they're just too damn cool... I think that'll be my next project.....

[ModernMuseum]

My 02 WRX (catless, stage II) used to get ~30mpg on the highway. It's roughly 280hp. It gets about 25 now, but I expect it to be back up near 30 after I do some much needed maintenance.

I can eat Cobalts and *ahem* dodge neons all day long. Plus I can take a 90 degree turn at 40mph without flinching :)

[ALLstrokedOUT]

By doing some rough math, it seems as though unless you get a huge discount for buying propane in 'bulk' it would be more if not the same price as gas. although it was hard for me to find prices of propane (in lbs or gal.).
This is a pretty interseting read pertaining to propane, and attempting to inject it into the runners in liquid state via efi: http://orgs.kettering.edu/orgs/lpgvan/SAE-LPG.html

..My dad bought a corvair about a year ago, he says it gets about 17-22mpg mostly highway, some city driving with the two stock single barrel carbs (its a 68' monza 110hp). I want to fuel inject it for him, but hes afraid of technology. I LOVE WRX's, thats definatly a car i want to own one day, but i have more skill than money at the moment, and i dont think you could find one of those motors for less than an ecotec or honda sadly...

[JJEH]

Honestly, I don't like 4 cyl. engines. No displacement, less power, high revolutions to have at least some power, some of them are running really uneven and most of them are not really better in gas milage as a V6.

But since we have the Fusion (2.5L, 173hp) I changed my mind. I'm not a 4 cyl. lover but they are okay.
The Ford goes 31.5mpg/hwy and 26.x/cty what is okay to me. The Vmax of 112mph is ridiculous, but also okay.

4 cyl. turbo are common in Germany, most of them are Diesel. But I don't like 'em so much. They also need a higher revolution and they are less economic in gas milage.

Yes, i think 4bangers are the future. V6, V8, V10 and V12 are getting really expensive in the near future.
That's my opinion. I don't like it but I guess I have to deal with it...

Unless somebody invents an affordable flux-compensator for the regular folks...

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Ive never been a fan of four cylinders either, but i dont see a way around it...if you cant beat em' (figuratively of course) join em'...Ill always have my duster, and itll probably become even less fuel efficient as time goes by due to performance mods. So, if i can have a fun little fuel efficient, and affordable car for the week days like everyone else does, all my 'fun' money can go into the duster...im looking more and more at a 70's nova with an ecotec or another duster/dart with an srt4 engine. Both cars ive found on craigslist for under $2000...Like i said: cheap, light, and affordable

[Rhino]

I'm trying to pick up a '76 Vega roller to use as a commuter car. If I do end up getting it I'll be looking at an eco swap as well.

[twosaturns]

I don't see how anyone can think that they can build a turbo 300+HP reliable daily driver for cheap. the guys that try that w/ hondas have the car up on jackstands more than its driven, sinking/wasting THOUSANDS into it. building a 300hp 4cyl will easily cost TWICE or MORE what it would take to build a 300hp V8, and be less reliable.
I've been driving 4bangers for years now (couple of GTI's, a twin cam saturn, and some mazdas) and the FIRST thing you need to get out of your head is the HP number. these cars are light and make a different kind of powerband.
I don't care if they need to be rev'd, thats the fun! the 8V GTI's (110hp)I had would get over 40mpg on the hwy, and my twin cam saturn (124hp) easily got 34mpg on my lively commute, easily cruising at 80mph and still had power for passing.
sure, they don't look good in the 0-60 or 1/4, but are a hel l of a lot of fun to drive!

[Six_Shooter]

I don't see how anyone can think that they can build a turbo 300+HP reliable daily driver for cheap. the guys that try that w/ hondas have the car up on jackstands more than its driven, sinking/wasting THOUSANDS into it. building a 300hp 4cyl will easily cost TWICE or MORE what it would take to build a 300hp V8, and be less reliable.


This is simply not true, if you know how to build the car. The parts don't cost twice as much as V8 parts, so why would it cost twice as much?

Blanket statements like these should be left unsaid, since they are biased and misleading.

People keep telling me there is no way I built and turbocharged a 250(ish) HP 3.2L V6, for less than $1300 USD at the time I did it. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was a very reliable daily driver for the two years I drove it that way. If I wasn't dumb, and pulled it apart to upgrade, I would likely still be driving it, and tuned properly by now. lol
I know that's not a 4 cyl, but is just a big brother to. With better understanding of thermal dynamics and temp controlling, along with more finite fuel and spark control, can make some very impressive numbers.

I guess we can go back about 15 years or so when people said you could "NEVER" drive a 1000+ HP car on the street, and never try to push for more. ;) Oh wait.... haha

HP/#cyl does NOT = reduced reliability

Poor workmanship + lack of knowledge + cutting corners = reduced reliability (usually)

[twosaturns]

fine, whatever.

[Defender67]

I just bought a cheap used car as a DD: 1988 Mazda MX6. It looks absolutely horrible and the body is dented on every panel. The interior is clean and it runs perfect though. I only paid $900 for it. I've had it for 4 years so far and put over 40k miles on it since i bought it (160k now). Since it looks like crap, I can park it wherever I want and not worry about dings etc. It still cruises just fine 75+mph on the highway and it gets 30-32mpg. Also, since it is such a pile it only costs me $11 a month for full insurance coverage (no comp obviously haha).

It has paid for itself over and over again. People get out of my way because it looks like I'm uninsured. Most economical car I've ever had... not the prettiest, but I have other toys for that.

[Marty G Cars]

. . . I LOVE WRX's, thats definatly a car i want to own one day

This may not exactly fit this thread but it is a four banger AND WRX powered AND it will be street legal AND a great autocross car.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2093090

[demon1515]

Let me tell you guys i have built all 4;s 6's and 8's and all in all if you do your job the right way they hold up just fine in a 500+ hp environment and daily use i have been there and done that before, my last one was a 2jz Toyota inline 6 with 1100+ wheel HP on high boost setting and other than rods,pistons, ARP hardware and cams everything else in the engine was stock and hold up very nice for couple of years of street race and every day use with couple of runs down the track doing high 8's low 9's with traction problems.

[ALLstrokedOUT]

This may not exactly fit this thread but it is a four banger AND WRX powered AND it will be street legal AND a great autocross car.
If not for the practicality in bad weather, and possible street legal issues id be building one of those things too!! You can't get any more light weight than a scaled up go-cart.

...To a point i agree that it would be a waste of time and money to make serious power out of a 4 cylinder, i dont feel that 300 hp, even 400 hp is that point. It depends on your definition of reliable..and streetable i suppose.
I found a really cool article about the ecotecs; how they pushed it to its limits, and fortified it to take more power next time. The goal in the article was 20-40 1/4 mile runs without rebuild, 800 hp @10,000rpm. Obviously, at 800 hp reliability is relative...but its interesting how little had to be done to 'reliably' handle 3-400 hp:
http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/turp_0203_gm_racing_ecotec_engine/index.html

[JJEH]

Everything is possible if you do it right. But if it's worth it?

I drove a lot of different cars. And I remember on a ride in a 1998 Honda Integra (eu-spec.) with 1.8L and 190hp.
It's a naturally aspirated engine and the V-Tec works from 5000rpm on. Below 5000rpm this car acts like a sleeping pill.

Do I want this on a daily basis? Hell NO!

So this is what I don't like on 4 bangers, it's annoying...

[DarkBuddha]

It's fairly easy to build a daily driveable, totally reliable 300+hp turbo 4 cyl for $3k. With nothing more than some mild porting and a hefty amount of boost (22psi) you can get a lowly turbo-ified Pinto motor (aka SVO, Turbocoupe, Merkur motor) to 300hp for well under $3k, on the stock bottom end and a $200 used Holset. It won't get great mileage, but it will haul! Add an cockpit adjustable boost controller, step up to a MSII standalone, and you're right around $3k and can get even more power, driveability, and economy. Sure, if you drive it hard you'll have the usual issues like getting traction, clutch durability, and broken diffs; basically no different than any other performance built car.

BTW, John Huber won "Small block power adder" at Drag Week in '09 with a 2.5 (stroked 2.3) turbo '79 Mustang. Not your basic 2.3 turbo motor, but proof that 4 cyls can kick ass and leave the V8s behind.

[demon1515]

^^^^^^^word^^^^^^^^
x2

[Rhino]

I picked up a 2003 VW GTI about a week ago for a commuter car. I can tell you that this little turbo 1.8 has given me a new respect for 4 cylinders. I'm sure it can be attributed to it's size/weight, but the car is quick and handles like a go-cart.

[Tony_SS]

I wish the guy would've finished his Chevette ecotec build here.... I love the concept.. even in a midsize, older 80's g-body or something.

[Twentyover]

There's a guy putting an ecotech in a mid-60' chevy II. Name is 417something

[Six_Shooter]

There's a guy putting an ecotech in a mid-60' chevy II. Name is 417something

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?76959-Project-quot-Green-Bean-quot-....-ecotec-66-nova...

[ALLstrokedOUT]

Yup, both of those builds got me thinking about the whole small displacement engines thing...my other friend with another srt4 put a bigger turbo in and apparently gets better mileage then stock since it's in boost less. I have a lot to learn and research, but if I have anything it's time haha.

[Tony_SS]

We have an 07 HHR with a 2.4 ecotec. It has a cw of about 3200lbs. Figuring that, I'd expect the same power/weight ratio from a 78-88 a/g body, but I'm not sure how that changes when the engine sideways.. I'm sure some power would be lost going to the rear wheels, but even so, sounds like there's some left on tap with these ecotec's. Even if it's an n/a setup, you'd still be driving a killer dd with 30mpg.

[bluegrandbetsy0]

I was thinking about getting a vega wagon and i tried finding but couldnt find a good 4cyl. a newer one to put in it and yes it has to be a rear wheel drive engine but un able to find anything, all i find is ecotech cobalt engines. but i was thinking about a pontiac or saturn soltice cuz i think they are a 4cyl and they are rear wheel drive tell me what you think i should do

[Simmo]

Let me tell you guys i have built all 4;s 6's and 8's and all in all if you do your job the right way they hold up just fine in a 500+ hp environment and daily use i have been there and done that before, my last one was a 2jz Toyota inline 6 with 1100+ wheel HP on high boost setting and other than rods,pistons, ARP hardware and cams everything else in the engine was stock and hold up very nice for couple of years of street race and every day use with couple of runs down the track doing high 8's low 9's with traction problems.

+1 to this! (ok maybe not the street race bit...)

I'm the odd man out here trying to make an LS go hard lol....and I tell you it's damn hard to keep up without FI!

[ace_xp2]

Well if I was going to go four cylinder, I would probably go big block (or rather, half a big block):
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256713
A Mercruiser 3.7l inline 4, uses a 429 head, pistons, and I think rods.
230 cubic inches of big blockish goodness. Needs a different alternator, and an external water pump to make it reliable.
Not great for gas mileage, (though I've never seen anyone do efi) but at about 250 lbs thanks to an all aluminium block and using any after market aluminium 429 head, it won't have near the weight penalty of a v8.

[sokoloka]

My buddy has a pretty badass trophy truck / desert buggy that he runs with a stock Ecotec and the thing HAULS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XKfC01IhDw

And this is a full caged, heavy as all getout long travel rig. I used to not be a fan of four bangers until I saw his rig; and now that I'm over in Europe - diesel four bangers seem to be the way to go. I have a 2011 BMW 520D and the thing will easily cruise at 90-95mph getting around 45-48mpg.

[Nothingface5384]

a buick lc2 turbo 3.8 v6is also i great engine that makes easypower ands can knock 25mpg more in a light car such as a rx7 or miata

[Nothingface5384]

a buick lc2 turbo 3.8 v6is also i great engine that makes easypower ands can knock 25mpg more in a light car such as a rx7 or miata

25 mpg in a 34-3600lbs car...close to 30 in cars less then 3k like the mentioned rx7 which can also acheive 0-60in lessthen 4 secs
even more mpgs if you mate a t-56 over the 2004r auto

[Kenova]

A Mercruiser 3.7l inline 4, uses a 429 head, pistons, and I think rods.
230 cubic inches of big blockish goodness. Needs a different alternator, and an external water pump to make it reliable.
Not great for gas mileage, (though I've never seen anyone do efi) but at about 250 lbs thanks to an all aluminium block and using any after market aluminium 429 head, it won't have near the weight penalty of a v8.

:hmm:
I wonder if there is much of a vibration issue at 6000 rpm.?

Ken

[SparkyRnD]

I always go back to this: the smaller an engine is, the more work it has to do compared to a larger engine in the same vehicle. That means the smaller engine will also typically not last as long as the larger engine, everything else being the same. If you can have an LS engine that gets you 400hp and 25mpg, why go with a 4cyl that will have to work harder for the same mpg? Other than the cool factor that is....

[ehummelman]

I hope that everyone who says that V8, V10, V12 engines are going to become things of the past are very wrong. How sad would it be if we all had to drive around in little 4 bangers or electric cars? I don't know, I'll wear a dress to work before I drive a ****ing Prius.

I'm confused as to what he driving force is behind this movement? Is it emissions, oil resources, politics (this is my personal guess)? It's been proven already that we can produce big power with very little emissions and decent fuel consumption in 6 and 8 cylinder engines, both gas and diesel. It's not cheap to do, but it can be done.

[ALLstrokedOUT]

my whole thought behind it is that it is going to be oil resources coupled with emissions standards (which emissions can also be directly related to politics as i see it)..We did the math for my dad who drives ~70 miles a day, in his 63 corvette and within four years the gas savings alone between it and a civic or other econo-box would pay for said econo-box. Of course my dad didnt get a civic, he rebuilt a 68 corvair and gets about 18mpg mix with it. I dont think big cubic inch engines will ever leave, but i can already see i wont be daily driving my demon for long. I can get 20mpg on the highway with my 408ci small block-basically ~30 year old technology. But the city mileage drops down into single digits, and thats where most of my driving is rite now.

Since i started this thread ive had a change of heart, ive gotten pretty big into diesels, and now think thats the future, or at least a part of it. If my5.9L 6000lb truck can get 21mpg with a mix of city/hwy miles, im very excited for the potential of a lighter vehicle. Couple that with my new dream of being able to run waste vegitable oil, even possibly growing your own fuel, and fuel economy technically doesnt even have to come into play. I still plan on building a 2nd gen camaro with a 350hp 4 cylinder, but not for a few years. Ill always have the demon, and will be looking for ways to make it faster, but i strongly feel we wont be seeing fuel costs go much below $4 a gallon for a long, long time.

[jp455]

In the same vein as that Mercruiser engine heres a sweet little 4 cylinder Ive always wanted to use on a project. Its basically half a Hemi V8! As far as I know you can still buy them new. Its the same engine that was in the Foose Blowfish Barracuda.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/A4_ass_5-1.jpg